Toggle Mobile

[andy]

Originally Posted by UKSTEVE

From discussions I've seen elsewhere, it seems that Toggle has tightened up its roaming and diversion processes over the last six weeks.

As well as blocking same-country diverts using the usual *21# etc GSM divert codes within the designated home country (as defined by the registered IMSIs on the SIM card - e.g. O2 to UK Toggle number, SFR to French Toggle number etc) the company has also ...

Do I understand this correctly, Steve?

This isn't about call diversion from the Toggle SIM itself, but the ability to forward other numbers to it?

Does diversion rely on getting permission from the destination number network, and that can be turned down?

I've seen comments above that it won't be possible, or that's what I think it means, but so far I'm a little confused as I can still do so, though that's not yet tested abroad. Coming soon ...

[ChrisNeedsToKnow]

Hi andy,

may I try to answer your questions?

Originally Posted by andy

This isn't about call diversion from the Toggle SIM itself, but the ability to forward other numbers to it?

Diverts from Toggle to elsewhere are (unfortunately) not possible.

Originally Posted by andy

Does diversion rely on getting permission from the destination number network, and that can be turned down?

Not directly, but it can be indirectly implemented: A diverted call is technically marked as such. Thus the receiving network can identify diverted calls, and handle them differently.

• Diverting my "normal" Swiss# to Toggle is not possible, Toggle rejects the call.
• Diverting my "normal" German# to Toggle is (strangely) possible and Toggle accepts the call. When receiving such calls the phone even displays "diverted call".
• I wish to test the same with my "usual" UK#, but Virgin doesn´t allow diverts.

Originally Posted by andy

I've seen comments above that it won't be possible, or that's what I think it means, but so far I'm a little confused as I can still do so, though that's not yet tested abroad. Coming soon ...

Abroad... I am in Switzerland now, and my Swiss# cannot be diverted to Toggle. On Friday I´ll be in Germany. I´ll test again whether the Swiss divert will suddenly work when I log into the German network. Have to say I doubt it. We´ll see Friday.

Rgds, Christian

[inquisitor]

Originally Posted by andy

This isn't about call diversion from the Toggle SIM itself, but the ability to forward other numbers to it?

Does diversion rely on getting permission from the destination number network, and that can be turned down?

The SS7 protocol which is used for interconnection among carriers has a forward sequence number (FSN) and a forward indicator bit (FIB) by which the originating carrier discloses to the terminating carrier that a call is being forwarded and also from which phone number the call is actually originating. The main purpose of this information is that the terminal of the receiving party can indicate forwarded calls as such enabling the end user to distinguish between regular and forwarded calls (you might have noticed that your mobile phone indicates forwarded calls and displays the original callers number instead of the forwarding line's number).
Toggle unfortunately uses this information to block calls that are flagged as forwarded. I guess the reason for the blocking of forwarded calls is that they try to avoid assymetric call volumes where incoming calls outweigh outgoing ones since they obviously don't earn much from free incoming calls given today's low mobile termination rates in most markets. Toggle's business model very likely relies on a sound amount of outgoing calls and so they probably try to avoid too much incoming calls by blocking forwarded calls. Though the current blocking rules seem to be a bit inconsistent.
In any case when you set up the forwarding through your own VoIP equipment there's no FSN or FIB that may reveal forwarded calls since the FSN or FIB can only be added by the exchange and not by the user terminal. Hence I can still forward all my VoIP numbers to my toggle SIM through intervoip.com (a Dellmont brand) using my FritzBox. Problems start when you let your carrier forward calls in the exchange.

[NFH]

While in the UK, my UK Toggle number receives incoming calls diverted via Flextel. I know you're all testing more elaborate routing, but I thought I should mention this.

[andy]

Originally Posted by inquisitor

The SS7 protocol which is used for interconnection among carriers has a forward sequence number (FSN) and a forward indicator bit (FIB) by which the originating carrier discloses to the terminating carrier that a call is being forwarded and also from which phone number the call is actually originating. The main purpose of this information is that the terminal of the receiving party can indicate forwarded calls as such enabling the end user to distinguish between regular and forwarded calls (you might have noticed that your mobile phone indicates forwarded calls and displays the original callers number instead of the forwarding line's number).

Thanks for the explanation [shortened], and it does show as described.

Is it possible that they might block forwarding while a SIM is roaming - by which I mean here not on the home territory for the actual number being called - but allow it at home?

I suppose I can try this a bit more in a few days time

Hi guys. I have been struggling to understand Toggle for about a week now and am very glad to have found this forum!
There have been a few discoveries that I have made and I would love to get some feedback on them:
* Registration of my local Toggle number took about four days - but it worked Ok in the end.
* I was hoping to forward my normal number to my local Toggle number while overseas. That actually works OK in Australia but there is no voicemail facility, so is not of much use if (say) I want to turn off my Toggle phone overnight in UK. Toggle have now told me that voicemail only works when directly calling the primary (UK) Toggle number.
* I now plan to forward my normal number to my UK Toggle number (which I can do very cheaply OK). I am trusting that this will work OK and that voicemail will then operate OK.
* I can ring my UK Toggle number OK from Australia and leave voicemail OK. After calling in to the mailbox, I am told about the new message but cannot actually listen to it. I think that this is just a system fault and await Toggle's help.

There is some great potential here, but boy it is difficult to get a handle on it!

[rfranzq]

Originally Posted by robinb

Hi guys. I have been struggling to understand Toggle for about a week now and am very glad to have found this forum!

Welcome to the Forum.
Perhaps in a few weeks you could gives us your observations about how it is working in Australia for you. Your contribution will be appreciated.

[ronwi]

As this seems to be the most knowledgeable discussion going on Toggle Mobile, I thought I'd post these miscellaneous thoughts/questions here:

• Seems Toggle will really become most useful when they have data packages for countries other than the native country of the SIM (UK for £ SIM, NL for € SIM). Presumably would have to extend life of IMSI to coincide with data plan - e.g., if bought a 15 day data plan with 10 days left on IMSI.
  
• Not clear what happens when 30 days are up on IMSI life. I suppose people may get caught making calls that they think are at the 3p per minute rate, but actually end up paying the higher roaming rate. Also, for some country IMSIs there is a time lag between requesting IMSI and getting number
  
• Re IMSI time lag, got Spanish and NL numbers instantaneously, took longer for France. France is the only one of the three that requires passport information. The number showed on the website but it did not show as "registered" until some time later - and will not show as registered until actually downloads the number to phone,
  
• My guess is that Italy is not among the Toggle countries because of the Italian security regulations. In Italy, one has to have an Italian tax ID number to get a SIM card. I suspect the Italians may not allow Toggle to assign an Italian IMSI number absent the Tax ID. This could be a problem in other countries as well. Seems the general trend in the world is to require more ID and make it more difficult to obtain prepaid SIMs.
  
• They say US is coming, but they will need to change their business model somewhat. No one offers free incoming in the US when you dial a US number, as it is mobile customer pays in the US, not caller pays like in Europe. They presently have free incoming in the US when calling one of the European numbers, but presumably they are getting some money at the European termination end.
  
• What's the deal with the termination rates to the UK number? It is in the Lyca range, seems that until recently the other UK mobile operators charged extra to call Lyca, but that has now stopped. Betamax/Dellmont charges for Lyca calls as for regular UK mobile numbers, but Localphone charges 2.9 US cents to most UK normal mobiles but 19.9 cents to Lyca (same as Jersey.) In practice, this can mean that it is cheaper to get an IMSI in France for example (3.9 cents on Localphone) even if not travelling to France for purposes of forwarding.

[NFH]

Originally Posted by ronwi

What's the deal with the termination rates to the UK number? It is in the Lyca range, seems that until recently the other UK mobile operators charged extra to call Lyca, but that has now stopped.

T-Mobile UK excludes calls to Lycamobile UK numbers from inclusive minutes. I read somewhere that this was because Lycamobile used to be an MVNO on T-Mobile but Lycamobile switched to Vodafone, taking a huge number allocation with them. T-Mobile in retaliation applied this commercial sanction against Lycamobile. None of the other networks have ever discriminated against Lycamobile numbers in this way, even though Lycamobile's termination rate is higher than the main networks. Even after Orange UK and T-Mobile UK merged to become EE, only T-Mobile branded customers continue to suffer this sanction against Lycamobile.

One way around this is to port a number from a mainstream network to Lycamobile or Toggle. This causes many originating networks to charge as if the number had not been ported.

[inquisitor]

Originally Posted by ronwi

• They say US is coming, but they will need to change their business model somewhat. No one offers free incoming in the US when you dial a US number, as it is mobile customer pays in the US, not caller pays like in Europe. They presently have free incoming in the US when calling one of the European numbers, but presumably they are getting some money at the European termination end.

They definitely get the termination rates, which are as follows:

UK £ 0.0069/min (April 1st, 2013 Ofcom | Regulated prices)
FR € 0.008/min (January 1st, 2013)
ES € 0.0109/min (January 1st, 2013 to be lowered to € 0.0098/min from July 1st, 2013)
SE € 0.017/min
DE € 0.0185/min (4Q2012, disputed by EU Commission EUROPA - PRESS RELEASES - Press Release - European Commission halts German plans to set fixed termination rates 3-times above EU-average)
NO € 0.0265/min
NL € 0.027/min
DK € 0.0309/min
AU A$ 0.06/min (January 1st, 2012, set to fall to A$ 0.036/min from June 2014)
CH CHF 0.0875/min

IE ? (varying termination rates, Lyca not listed)
PL ? (varying termination rates, Lyca not listed)

soure: http://berec.europa.eu/eng/document_...shot-as-_0.pdf

• What's the deal with the termination rates to the UK number? It is in the Lyca range, seems that until recently the other UK mobile operators charged extra to call Lyca, but that has now stopped. Betamax/Dellmont charges for Lyca calls as for regular UK mobile numbers, but Localphone charges 2.9 US cents to most UK normal mobiles but 19.9 cents to Lyca (same as Jersey.) In practice, this can mean that it is cheaper to get an IMSI in France for example (3.9 cents on Localphone) even if not travelling to France for purposes of forwarding.

Obviously many carriers charge higher rates for calls to British MVNOs but I cannot find any source confirming that there's a higher termination rate for those.

Given the termination rates above I wonder why toggle does not block calls forwarded to the British number (for which they get the lowest termination fee) but blocks calls forwarded to Swiss toggle numbers which would yield a very high termination rate that can definitly cover the costs even while roaming in other European countries.