Toggle Mobile

[ronwi]

As this seems to be the most knowledgeable discussion going on Toggle Mobile, I thought I'd post these miscellaneous thoughts/questions here:

• Seems Toggle will really become most useful when they have data packages for countries other than the native country of the SIM (UK for £ SIM, NL for € SIM). Presumably would have to extend life of IMSI to coincide with data plan - e.g., if bought a 15 day data plan with 10 days left on IMSI.
  
• Not clear what happens when 30 days are up on IMSI life. I suppose people may get caught making calls that they think are at the 3p per minute rate, but actually end up paying the higher roaming rate. Also, for some country IMSIs there is a time lag between requesting IMSI and getting number
  
• Re IMSI time lag, got Spanish and NL numbers instantaneously, took longer for France. France is the only one of the three that requires passport information. The number showed on the website but it did not show as "registered" until some time later - and will not show as registered until actually downloads the number to phone,
  
• My guess is that Italy is not among the Toggle countries because of the Italian security regulations. In Italy, one has to have an Italian tax ID number to get a SIM card. I suspect the Italians may not allow Toggle to assign an Italian IMSI number absent the Tax ID. This could be a problem in other countries as well. Seems the general trend in the world is to require more ID and make it more difficult to obtain prepaid SIMs.
  
• They say US is coming, but they will need to change their business model somewhat. No one offers free incoming in the US when you dial a US number, as it is mobile customer pays in the US, not caller pays like in Europe. They presently have free incoming in the US when calling one of the European numbers, but presumably they are getting some money at the European termination end.
  
• What's the deal with the termination rates to the UK number? It is in the Lyca range, seems that until recently the other UK mobile operators charged extra to call Lyca, but that has now stopped. Betamax/Dellmont charges for Lyca calls as for regular UK mobile numbers, but Localphone charges 2.9 US cents to most UK normal mobiles but 19.9 cents to Lyca (same as Jersey.) In practice, this can mean that it is cheaper to get an IMSI in France for example (3.9 cents on Localphone) even if not travelling to France for purposes of forwarding.

[NFH]

Originally Posted by ronwi

What's the deal with the termination rates to the UK number? It is in the Lyca range, seems that until recently the other UK mobile operators charged extra to call Lyca, but that has now stopped.

T-Mobile UK excludes calls to Lycamobile UK numbers from inclusive minutes. I read somewhere that this was because Lycamobile used to be an MVNO on T-Mobile but Lycamobile switched to Vodafone, taking a huge number allocation with them. T-Mobile in retaliation applied this commercial sanction against Lycamobile. None of the other networks have ever discriminated against Lycamobile numbers in this way, even though Lycamobile's termination rate is higher than the main networks. Even after Orange UK and T-Mobile UK merged to become EE, only T-Mobile branded customers continue to suffer this sanction against Lycamobile.

One way around this is to port a number from a mainstream network to Lycamobile or Toggle. This causes many originating networks to charge as if the number had not been ported.

[andy]

Originally Posted by NFH

T-Mobile UK excludes calls to Lycamobile UK numbers from inclusive minutes. I read somewhere that this was because Lycamobile used to be an MVNO on T-Mobile but Lycamobile switched to Vodafone, taking a huge number allocation with them. T-Mobile in retaliation applied this commercial sanction against Lycamobile. None of the other networks have ever discriminated against Lycamobile numbers in this way, even though Lycamobile's termination rate is higher than the main networks. Even after Orange UK and T-Mobile UK merged to become EE, only T-Mobile branded customers continue to suffer this sanction against Lycamobile.

One way around this is to port a number from a mainstream network to Lycamobile or Toggle. This causes many originating networks to charge as if the number had not been ported.

The Lyca movement from T-mobile to another network happened in the Netherlands, and about 4 years ago, so it's a matter of speculation as to whether that is the actual reason for action in the UK.

It does appear that Lyca's termination rate may be a bit higher, but maybe only a cent or so.

Originally Posted by ronwi

... but Localphone charges 2.9 US cents to most UK normal mobiles but 19.9 cents to Lyca (same as Jersey.) In practice, this can mean that it is cheaper to get an IMSI in France for example (3.9 cents on Localphone) even if not travelling to France for purposes of forwarding.[/LIST]

That's interesting about the Localphone rate. Switching displayed currency to GBP, it shows as 8.2 pence, which isn't equivalent. I've sent in a query about this, and it's been forwarded internally ... maybe it will be reviewed.

[NFH]

Originally Posted by andy

The Lyca movement from T-mobile to another network happened in the Netherlands, and about 4 years ago, so it's a matter of speculation as to whether that is the actual reason for action in the UK.

That explains why I had trouble finding the source then. Thanks!

[andy]

Originally Posted by NFH

That explains why I had trouble finding the source then. Thanks!

One version

Lycamobile signs deal with Vodafone Netherlands

That's about the launch of course. Whether there were disputes arising later about migrating customers or their phone numbers, I don't know.

In the UK, originally Lyca was on Orange, perhaps with ordinary Orange prefixes though I'm not sure. When they launched what they initially called Lycamobile Plus as an mvno on O2 then they had their own number allocations.

Given that Lyca seems to have partnerships with different networks in different countries, without any apparent favourites, it would be surprising if T-mobile UK is carrying this over from the Netherlands.

Maybe it is only that it disagrees with Lyca UK having a higher termination rate [if indeed it does].

[willemijns]

lyca spain is on this case..


he was with movistar
Lycamobile adds Spain to list of operating regions

and now with orange
Vodafone (network) - SIMCARDSPAIN.ES

of course with no customers alerts ^^

[willemijns]

> It does appear that Lyca's termination rate may be a bit higher, but maybe only a cent or so.

In France, terminate rate has been decided by a regulator, no amount can be higher than their condition.

[ronwi]

Are you certain that Tmobile still excludes Lyca from it's commercial rates? I saw a thread elsewhere stating that Lyca calls were now treated by Tmobile (and other UK mobile providers) the same as other mobile networks, and someone pointed to Tmobile's website where the Lyca exception on longer appeared.

Originally Posted by NFH

T-Mobile UK excludes calls to Lycamobile UK numbers from inclusive minutes. I read somewhere that this was because Lycamobile used to be an MVNO on T-Mobile but Lycamobile switched to Vodafone, taking a huge number allocation with them. T-Mobile in retaliation applied this commercial sanction against Lycamobile. None of the other networks have ever discriminated against Lycamobile numbers in this way, even though Lycamobile's termination rate is higher than the main networks. Even after Orange UK and T-Mobile UK merged to become EE, only T-Mobile branded customers continue to suffer this sanction against Lycamobile.

One way around this is to port a number from a mainstream network to Lycamobile or Toggle. This causes many originating networks to charge as if the number had not been ported.

[inquisitor]

Originally Posted by ronwi

• They say US is coming, but they will need to change their business model somewhat. No one offers free incoming in the US when you dial a US number, as it is mobile customer pays in the US, not caller pays like in Europe. They presently have free incoming in the US when calling one of the European numbers, but presumably they are getting some money at the European termination end.

They definitely get the termination rates, which are as follows:

UK £ 0.0069/min (April 1st, 2013 Ofcom | Regulated prices)
FR € 0.008/min (January 1st, 2013)
ES € 0.0109/min (January 1st, 2013 to be lowered to € 0.0098/min from July 1st, 2013)
SE € 0.017/min
DE € 0.0185/min (4Q2012, disputed by EU Commission EUROPA - PRESS RELEASES - Press Release - European Commission halts German plans to set fixed termination rates 3-times above EU-average)
NO € 0.0265/min
NL € 0.027/min
DK € 0.0309/min
AU A$ 0.06/min (January 1st, 2012, set to fall to A$ 0.036/min from June 2014)
CH CHF 0.0875/min

IE ? (varying termination rates, Lyca not listed)
PL ? (varying termination rates, Lyca not listed)

soure: http://berec.europa.eu/eng/document_...shot-as-_0.pdf

• What's the deal with the termination rates to the UK number? It is in the Lyca range, seems that until recently the other UK mobile operators charged extra to call Lyca, but that has now stopped. Betamax/Dellmont charges for Lyca calls as for regular UK mobile numbers, but Localphone charges 2.9 US cents to most UK normal mobiles but 19.9 cents to Lyca (same as Jersey.) In practice, this can mean that it is cheaper to get an IMSI in France for example (3.9 cents on Localphone) even if not travelling to France for purposes of forwarding.

Obviously many carriers charge higher rates for calls to British MVNOs but I cannot find any source confirming that there's a higher termination rate for those.

Given the termination rates above I wonder why toggle does not block calls forwarded to the British number (for which they get the lowest termination fee) but blocks calls forwarded to Swiss toggle numbers which would yield a very high termination rate that can definitly cover the costs even while roaming in other European countries.

[ronwi]

I had written to Localphone last week and said that in light of the fact the UK mobile carriers were no longer charging extra for calls to Lyca UK, perhaps they were not either and they might want to consider lowering their rates.

I got an email back today informing me that they were lowering the rate to Lyca UK to 14.9 (US) cents per minute, which is now reflected on their website. Orange, Tmobile, and Vodafone are still at 2.9 cents. I would assume that for whatever reason Localphone is paying more than the termination rate shown on the Ofcom site. Perhaps those rates only apply to charges from one mobile carrier to another, and Localphone does not qualify for that rate.

Voipyo (Dellmont) still has Lyca for 1/2 Euro cent per minute. Using Voipyo with Mobilevoip in callback mode becomes insanely cheap - e.g., calling the US would be a half cent per minute plus a 5 cent setup charge (setup only charged using callback mode, not charged for pure voip or calling a local Dellmont number that cross-connects to your destination number.)

Originally Posted by inquisitor

They definitely get the termination rates, which are as follows:

UK £ 0.0069/min (April 1st, 2013 Ofcom | Regulated prices)
FR € 0.008/min (January 1st, 2013)
ES € 0.0109/min (January 1st, 2013 to be lowered to € 0.0098/min from July 1st, 2013)
SE € 0.017/min
DE € 0.0185/min (4Q2012, disputed by EU Commission EUROPA - PRESS RELEASES - Press Release - European Commission halts German plans to set fixed termination rates 3-times above EU-average)
NO € 0.0265/min
NL € 0.027/min
DK € 0.0309/min
AU A$ 0.06/min (January 1st, 2012, set to fall to A$ 0.036/min from June 2014)
CH CHF 0.0875/min

IE ? (varying termination rates, Lyca not listed)
PL ? (varying termination rates, Lyca not listed)

soure: http://berec.europa.eu/eng/document_...shot-as-_0.pdf

Obviously many carriers charge higher rates for calls to British MVNOs but I cannot find any source confirming that there's a higher termination rate for those.

Given the termination rates above I wonder why toggle does not block calls forwarded to the British number (for which they get the lowest termination fee) but blocks calls forwarded to Swiss toggle numbers which would yield a very high termination rate that can definitly cover the costs even while roaming in other European countries.