Does Anyone Know the REAL Roaming Costs Incurred by Carriers?

[snidely]

When VodaFone UK makes a roaming agreement w. ATT or T-Mobile in the U.S., what do they really pay ATT or T-M when a customer of theirs roams here? I am sure it's a small fraction of the HIGH rates they are now charging their customer.
An indication of this outrageous example in my case. I am grandfathered in on intl. roaming rates where T-Mobile charges 29-31 cents for incoming calls in many countries around the world. Present users pay $1/min in most of these countries - but $2 ($3?)/min. in Israel!! This is for incoming and outgoing. On my plan, if I didn't use a callback service and dialed direct, i would be paying 70 cents to $1.70 for outgoing.

Point is - It would seem if T-M weren't still making money on my rate plan, they would cancel it. It would guess that at some point one major carrier will attempt to capture the international roaming market and drastically reduce the rates. If/when this happens, the International roaming SIM is done for.

It would take just one major company to do this. The others would have to follow. Here in the U.S., when Sprint suddenly offered unlimited voice (in and out) for $99/mo., ATT, T-M, and Verizon followed within a couple days. If T-M U.S. offered everyone the same rates I pay, they could capture a lot of the world intl. market. It would pay non-U.S. users to sign up w. T-M here. Incoming 30 cents. Outgoing via callback service, about 7 cents more. European customers could forward calls from their landline to a U.S. number for less than 2 cents.

...mike

[MATHA531]

Originally Posted by snidely

When VodaFone UK makes a roaming agreement w. ATT or T-Mobile in the U.S., what do they really pay ATT or T-M when a customer of theirs roams here? I am sure it's a small fraction of the HIGH rates they are now charging their customer.
An indication of this outrageous example in my case. I am grandfathered in on intl. roaming rates where T-Mobile charges 29-31 cents for incoming calls in many countries around the world. Present users pay $1/min in most of these countries - but $2 ($3?)/min. in Israel!! This is for incoming and outgoing. On my plan, if I didn't use a callback service and dialed direct, i would be paying 70 cents to $1.70 for outgoing.

Point is - It would seem if T-M weren't still making money on my rate plan, they would cancel it. It would guess that at some point one major carrier will attempt to capture the international roaming market and drastically reduce the rates. If/when this happens, the International roaming SIM is done for.

It would take just one major company to do this. The others would have to follow. Here in the U.S., when Sprint suddenly offered unlimited voice (in and out) for $99/mo., ATT, T-M, and Verizon followed within a couple days. If T-M U.S. offered everyone the same rates I pay, they could capture a lot of the world intl. market. It would pay non-U.S. users to sign up w. T-M here. Incoming 30 cents. Outgoing via callback service, about 7 cents more. European customers could forward calls from their landline to a U.S. number for less than 2 cents.

...mike

Well that is sort of what I said in the other thread....it really does gall me about international roaming rates, especially on the part of T Mobile USA when, as I've said at other times, if one roams on T Mobile UK, obstensibly part of the rate is what T Mobile USA has to pay to T Mobile UK for use of their network; well I'm sorry that's analogous to taking money out of the left pocket and putting it into the right pocket...they are both fully owned by Deutsches Telecom. It is a rip off.

The problem is we have only the two gsm carriers in the USA and quite frankly, few Americans think it's important to use a cell phone...all sorts of advice is not to use a cell phone but to use calling cards and use the cell phone only in emergencies. I missed out on the grandfathered rates when I began to understand gsm, sim cards and all that other stuff. So of course, I gravitated to the international cards. I remember a time when I was impressed by Virgin Mobile offering 15p/minute calls to the USA and free reception of calls in the UK...then when I travelled to France I got a French sim, Germany a German sim, Holland a Dutch sim....luckily for me my landline carrier is just about the only one that allows remote call forwarding to international phones although I tried Kall8 and voicestick for call forwarding.....the point is that all this would be unnecessary if T Mobile US offered fair international roaming rates.

But of course people vote with their feet so to speak. As long as people are ignorant of what a rip off T Mo's (and AT&T) international roaming rates are, they will say idiotic things like I don't think 99¢/minute is a bad rate to receive a call on my cell phone in Europe. They just don't get it eh.

I wonder if the bean counters at T Mobile USA have ever really sat down and realized the bonanza they could be missing out on by adjusting roaming rates to what they should be.

[FBlack_111]

Want to hear a huge rip off by T-Mobile? Try making a call from a cruise ship. T-Mobile charges $4.99 a minute. Verizon and Att charge $2.49. This is no bargain either, but a whole lot less than T-Mobile. Don't use your International SIM either on a cruise ship. It costs more than Verizon and ATT, but less than T-Mobile.

[snidely]

Originally Posted by FBlack_111

Want to hear a huge rip off by T-Mobile? Try making a call from a cruise ship. T-Mobile charges $4.99 a minute. Verizon and Att charge $2.49. This is no bargain either, but a whole lot less than T-Mobile. Don't use your International SIM either on a cruise ship. It costs more than Verizon and ATT, but less than T-Mobile.

Hate to sound as an apologist for the cell carriers -but ships use satellites for internet. That is very expensive. The sat. internet providers charge by the mb. I assume that cell phone services on ship connect the same way.
OTH, there is no excuse for T-M to charge double what everyone else charges.

BTW, maybe it would pay to rent a sat. phone. Think calls are $1 to $1.50/min. Don't know what the rental cost would be.

...mike

[DRNewcomb]

Originally Posted by snidely

Hate to sound as an apologist for the cell carriers -but ships use satellites for internet. That is very expensive. The sat. internet providers charge by the mb. I assume that cell phone services on ship connect the same way.

Not all that expensive. Yes, calls via INMARSAT are expensive but the way the cruise ships are set up is that they have a high bandwidth, full-time satellite connection. This serves all their data needs and most of their ship-to-shore communications needs. Most crew-calling shipboard solutions run about $1-$1.50/min. On US Navy ships you will often find a phone for the sailors personal use. They buy prepaid cards in the ships store for about $1/min, as I recall. So, roaming at $2.50/min is expensive. $4.50/min is just obscene. Being charged that price anywhere is obscene. OTOH, receiving a SMS and sending via FishText or smsBug is a good deal. You can stay in touch with home 24/7 for almost nothing.

[bbob]

Cell phone business is big and a cow they can milk.

don't know what roaming rates are between carriers but the different betewwn usa and europa is that us when calling a cellphone you pay the same as when calling a fixed phone. Looking at a us number you don't know if it's fixed or mobile. On the other side in the US you are paying to receive a call or if you have unlimited you pay through a higher montyl rate.

Now ask yourself the question why is it possible if a buy a dutch callcard having say 400 free minutes I can call for 6-7 cents perminute to other cell phones but when using a normal carrier I pay between 10-20 cents. 7 cents and 20 cents huge difference.

So even locally the phone companies are making some nice money on people calling cell phones.

Than when outside your country they charge even more or splitt the profit jointly btween themselfs and the carrier you are roaming on. Why do you think countries like spain did not like the new maximum eu roaming rates, it cost them lots of money.
My guess is that you will be azed when you hear how low the cost really are.

going forward one will have to see that cellphone use will change. More and more you see unlimited data where you can call voip. At present data roaming is still to expensive but in the near future that will also be cheaper. In the end prices will come down and it's just about paying a fixed price per month for unlimted use, just like you internet connection.

[petkow]

Originally Posted by snidely

what do they really pay ATT or T-M when a customer of theirs roams here?

Well, consider what T-Mobile Germany pays when a customer of theirs uses T-Mobile USA? At the end of the day they are both owned by Deutsche Telekom!

Truth is roaming rates are very complex, and based on a lot on factors including reciprocity. However there is a huge difference between what the customer pays and what the network may have to give up as a result of that customer roaming. Roaming is still a huge cash cow to the networks... and nothing they want to get rid of in a hurry! Those who pay less still pay enough! Your 29c "grandfathered" rates still make a profit as do my termination fees when I roam within Europe on a fixed plan from Telfonica/o2 with so called "free incoming".

It is all the more like blatant profiteering when "roaming" costs are incurred across networks that are ultimately owned by the same company. In the parts of the world were people frequently travel around in, a lot of brands are ultimately owned by some huge companies like Vodafone, Telefonica, Telenor, TeliaSonera, T-Mobile, Orange etc.

Of course the EU is sick to the teeth of what they say was nothing more than a money-making rip-off, and after networks refused to self-regulate they stepped in to set caps! Of course, the networks went crazy, saying they would need to increase costs on ordinary domestic calls, and monthly access fees to cover their costs. It is a very sour and controversial issue here, but at the end of the day, the customer has benefitted somewhat. However, let's not forget how much these networks had to pay to the same governments who are now regulating them. Vodafone UK for example paid almost 6 billion pounds to the UK government for their share of the 3G spectrum!!!

Anyhow, international regulation of this type can only occur in something as bizarre as the EU. These things cannot really occur across the world!

[bbob]

Originally Posted by petkow

Anyhow, international regulation of this type can only occur in something as bizarre as the EU. These things cannot really occur across the world!

Dont'forget in the 70 the usa splitt the telcom company because they became to dominant. When you look outside the eu you can find many countries that have rates far lower than in europe. Why is calling a eu mobile number still so expensive. I think it's good there is regulation.

I agree that companies had to pay big money to the goverments to get a 3g gsm license. Sure they have to earn this back. But what if these same govements would have given away these licences or at far lower prices. Do you really think rates would have been lower.
Please also note that many of these companies have made billions in loss to write off these purchases. The billions of loss can be compensated with future profits. So this way goverments are also paying for these losses.

[rggoldie]

Originally Posted by petkow

Well, consider what T-Mobile Germany pays when a customer of theirs uses T-Mobile USA? At the end of the day they are both owned by Deutsche Telekom!

In Australia, for example, I can roam with Three in Europe and pay much less if I am on a Three network in the country I am in. For example, data costs 50c/MB in Italy if I am on Three Italy and around $20/MB if I am on a different network.

Rupert

[MATHA531]

Originally Posted by rggoldie

In Australia, for example, I can roam with Three in Europe and pay much less if I am on a Three network in the country I am in. For example, data costs 50c/MB in Italy if I am on Three Italy and around $20/MB if I am on a different network.

Rupert

3 did that as well for some of its European customers but as I think I have read, it's ending that.

Also, Australia is a poor example as the way mobiles operate is more or less on the European model (caller pays the entire freight) than the North American model (you pay for air time whether sending or receiving).

Also a factor in all this is that gsm (I know it's a 2g technology and is slowly becoming outdated but it will be around for a while longer) is far from the predominant technology used in the USA. The largest carrier, by far, is Verizon which is not gsm. AT%T (originally Cingular of course) is a fairly recent convert to gsm. Only T Mobile has been gsm from the start. We also have had to put up with the added inconvenience of the different gsm frequencies here as opposed to the rest of the world although again quad band technology has for the most part resolved that problem (although there are still people walking around with tri bands, say 850, 1800, 1900 who run into trouble in a country such as Croatia which is predominantly 900)

Although I would like to believe otherwise, we're still a ways away from the concept of one universal phone number to use cell phone technology globally at affordable rates.