EU may end all roaming charges - Page 10

wolfbln · 02-07-2015, 09:42

@NFH
You may be right in theory. But most packages for "domestic" use that are offered in each EU country are valid within the own country only. Right now, there are very few "roaming" packages on the market. Still, a provider selling 1 GB for €10 domestic can go up to around €70 (10€ plus 1000*0.05ct plus tax) for the same roaming package.

I don't see any policy enforced on the provider that the same domestic package is required to be offered on EU roaming too (possibly with a surcharge of up to 5ct/MB plus tax). But your statement implies that I can use my domestic package allowance abroad too, which is mostly not true up to know. Have I missed a planned regulation, that providers are required to open their "domestic" package allowance to EU roaming?

Often a default rate per MB is the only rate offered for EU roaming. Only very few providers actually sell "roaming packages".
The DOMESTIC default rate for data can be as low as 1p per MB on Three UK, but is e.g. 24ct per MB on many European providers. This rate is absurdly high in some countries to force users into bundles.

So for EU roaming on default rate, Three UK will be only allowed to charge around 6p/MB (1p domestic + max. 5p surcharge), but many EU providers can go up to 30c/MB (24ct/MB default rate plus max. 6ct surcharge). This obviously adds up to higher prices than the current EU cap of around 23ct/MB with some providers. This new legislation can easily be circumvented by not offering "roaming packages" (or not opening their "domestic" packages to roaming), so every customer has to stay on the high default rate.

dg7feq showed the other big trap of the planned regulation: interntl. EU call charges, now capped at 0.19ct/min plus taxes on EU roaming (when calling from abroad). Normally, calling from your own country they are charged very high with many providers at €1/min or more for international calls. If we get rid of the cap and will replace it by a limits to surcharges scheme, a provider will be allowed to charge €1.06/min or more for intertl. calls which used to be capped at 0.19ct (on roaming).

NFH · 02-07-2015, 09:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfbln

Have I missed a planned regulation, that providers are required to offer their "domestic" package allowance on EU roaming too?

Yes. See http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release...15-5275_en.htm

"As from April 2016, prices will be even cheaper: operators will be able to charge a small additional amount to domestic prices up to €0.05 per minute of call made, €0.02 per SMS sent, and €0.05 per MB of data (excl. VAT)."

Domestic prices include bundles, packages and allowances. It makes no difference how a network structures its domestic prices. Its domestic prices must apply when roaming from April 2016, subject to these small surcharges.

andy · 02-07-2015, 10:51

One UK mvno already abolished roaming charges in Europe for this summer.

Going by some of the wording published so far about the new arrangement, they could put prices up for a year or more if they decide that this year's promotion only turns up an average result.

5 pence a megabyte now, 8 or 9 pence next year?

wolfbln · 02-07-2015, 11:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by NFH

Yes. See http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release...15-5275_en.htm

"As from April 2016, prices will be even cheaper: operators will be able to charge a small additional amount to domestic prices up to €0.05 per minute of call made, €0.02 per SMS sent, and €0.05 per MB of data (excl. VAT)."

Domestic prices include bundles, packages and allowances. It makes no difference how a network structures its domestic prices. Its domestic prices must apply when roaming from April 2016, subject to these small surcharges.

Sure it does make a huge difference how domestic prices and portfolio are structured because the EU gets rid of general price caps and introduces limited surcharges to the domestic tariffs for EU roaming. Then its up to the domestic pricing structure of each operator how much they charge for roaming.

Do you read from the article mentioned above that the same domestic bundle is required to be offered on roaming too (with the applicable surchage) or that "domestic" bundle volume can be used abroad in the EU?
For instance: provider A offers 500 MB "for domestic use only" at a certain price. Do you really think this given legislation forces this provider to offer the same package plus surcharge for roaming??? Or the domestic bundle needs to be opened up for EU roaming??? I really can't read that from the given EU press statement. Can a provider really be forced to roam by this legislation? Or can't they keep on selling bundles which are valid on their own networks only like today?

Now one is for sure, everybody offers a default rate, when no bundle is bought or for overuse. Getting rid of the 0.23€ per MB cap means that some providers may charge their domestic default rate at 0.24€/MB plus a 0.06€/MB surcharge they are allowed to impose for roaming in 2016. I can't see how "prices will be even cheaper" based on this regulation.

NFH · 02-07-2015, 11:44

@wolfbln, stop differentiating between incremental charges and bundles/allowances/packages. They are each treated the exactly same, in that both are domestic prices.

For example, a network might charge €10 for 1GB or it might charge €0.01 for 1MB. It makes no difference whether the network sells domestic usage in 1GB increments or 1MB increments. The principle is the same in that these domestic prices must be applied when roaming, subject to the small surcharges listed above.

The Q&A gives no exemption to bundles/allowances/packages. In fact, it even says with respect to usage after 15/06/2017 "For instance, if you pay for a monthly volume of minutes, SMS and data in your country, any voice call, SMS and data session you make while travelling abroad in the EU will be deducted from that volume as if you were at home, with no extra charges." After defining this principle, it then goes on to say "As from April 2016, prices will be even cheaper: operators will be able to charge a small additional amount to domestic prices up to €0.05 per minute of call made, €0.02 per SMS sent, and €0.05 per MB of data (excl. VAT)." This could not be clearer.

wolfbln · 02-07-2015, 12:01

@NFH

I'm totally aware that incremental charges and bundles/allowances/packages are all domestic prices (on which these surcharges can be applied).

The wording: operators will be able to charge a small additional amount to domestic prices does mean for me, that they are allowed to add a limited surcharge, if they offer their product (bundle, combined package, default rate... whatever) on roaming.

But does this necessarily imply that all "domestic" bundles of any given EU operator are required to be offered on EU roaming too? Or can't a operator decide which product is only offered on the home network and which one on EU roaming too?
`
I think we can't solve that right now. Let's wait until we get the final draft. But we shouldn't mix up the legislation effective May 2016 and following regulation starting in 2017 going much further. They are two different cups of tea. But the question remains the same in 2017: Are operators required by law to offer their whole portfolio of products on roaming as well? And not just certain tariffs?

NFH · 02-07-2015, 12:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfbln

But does this necessarily imply that all "domestic" bundles of any given EU operator are required to be offered on roaming too? Or can't a operator decide which product is only offered on the home network and which on roaming too?

An operator cannot pick and choose which of its domestic prices apply when roaming. It is clear that you will be able to "use your mobile device when travelling in the EU paying the same prices as at home (domestic prices)". Nothing in the press release or Q&A allows operators to pick and choose which domestic prices to apply to roaming. Based on what you are suggesting, an operator could choose to charge €100 per MB on one of its many domestic tariffs, and say that only this price applies when roaming. It would make no sense and would be contrary to the spirit of the new rules. I'm not sure where you got this concept from.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfbln

But we shouldn't mix up the legislation effective May 2016 and following regulation starting in 2017. They are two different cups of tea.

Actually they're very similar. The only difference between 30/04/2016-14/06/2017 and post-15/06/2017 is that in the former period operators will be allowed to add small roaming surcharges.

peterdoo · 02-07-2015, 12:42

Why shouldn't they be obliged to apply the current domestic price of the subscriber plus a surcharge while roaming? For a subscriber the domestic price is the one that the customer booked. Either per MB or a package.

A surcharge alone would be enough to cover the cost. Over 60 EUR per GB only for the surcharge is more than what you pay in any EU country buying a local SIM. The operators in Slovenia today in many domestic packages include 1 GB data plus unlimited calls in EEA-Roaming for 10 EUR per month (only those months when roaming is used). They certainly do not make losses with these offers, so the price level between the operators must already be very low.

I see the change to surcharge as a measure that will benefit operators with high domestic prices and will penalize those with low domestic prices. An operator from a country with high price level will charge a high price to its customer and pay low price to an operator in a low price level country. Higher profit than until now. An operator from a country with low price level will charge a low price to its customer and pay high price to an operator in a high price level country. Less income than until now. This encourages the operators to maintain or migrate towards high prices.

Probably the existing better roaming offers will not be canceled because of that. Although we are only talking about a regulation valid for about one year (from 2016 to 2017), I see this new regulation more like a preparation for what we can expect after 2017. Probably some time intervals will be specified (e.g. max. 20 days per year) during which the surcharges will be dropped completelly, using the domestic rate booked at that moment also while roaming. For the rest of the time, the surcharges will continue to be charged.

NFH · 02-07-2015, 12:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by peterdoo

Probably some time intervals will be specified (e.g. max. 20 days per year) during which the surcharges will be dropped completelly, using the domestic rate booked at that moment also while roaming. For the rest of the time, the surcharges will continue to be charged.

I agree, although I can't see this being calculated on an annual basis because it's so easy to port one's number many times throughout the year and reset the the fair usage counter. The fair usage policy will equally have to cater for a typical annual 2-week holiday. I believe the fair usage policy will not be defined by time but by consumption. Nevertheless it's going to be very hard to create fair usage policies that will work, which is probably why we haven't yet seen any mention of what they might be.

peterdoo · 02-07-2015, 16:43

I think that a "typical holiday" does not exist.

You will find a group of people that do not want to see a phone during a holiday except for emergency use.

Another group where during the holiday the usage of mobile phone/data is much higher than at home. Simply because one does not know the place and needs navigation, translation and information services. Also there is time available and a need to keep in touch with home (friends/family, social networks, news, entertainment). Home allowances where one tends to use WiFi at home and/or work and knows to minimize data use when no WiFi is available, are much too low for holiday use.

Next group of people that live close to the border and cross it weekly or daily.

Those that do not leave the country at all.

I am sure, each of them are millions of people. Whatever rule they will establish, there will be large groups that will not be covered. Or if they make it too generous (which I doubt), it would be easy to overcome it, porting the number after certain time (or usage) to another provider.

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	(#91)
wolfbln (Offline) Senior Member Prepaid Expert Posts: 206 Join Date: 14 Jul 2014 Country:	02-07-2015, 09:42 @NFH You may be right in theory. But most packages for "domestic" use that are offered in each EU country are valid within the own country only. Right now, there are very few "roaming" packages on the market. Still, a provider selling 1 GB for €10 domestic can go up to around €70 (10€ plus 10000.05ct plus tax) for the same roaming package. I don't see any policy enforced on the provider that the same domestic package is required to be offered on EU roaming too (possibly with a surcharge of up to 5ct/MB plus tax). But your statement implies that I can use my domestic package allowance abroad too, which is mostly not true up to know. Have I missed a planned regulation, that providers are required to open their "domestic" package allowance to EU roaming? Often a default rate per MB is the only rate offered for EU roaming. Only very few providers actually sell "roaming packages". The DOMESTIC default rate for data can be as low as 1p per MB on Three UK, but is e.g. 24ct per MB on many European providers. This rate is absurdly high in some countries to force users into bundles. So for EU roaming on default rate, Three UK will be only allowed to charge around 6p/MB (1p domestic + max. 5p surcharge), but many EU providers can go up to 30c/MB (24ct/MB default rate plus max. 6ct surcharge). This obviously adds up to higher prices than the current EU cap of around 23ct/MB with some providers. This new legislation can easily be circumvented by not offering "roaming packages" (or not opening their "domestic" packages to roaming), so every customer has to stay on the high default rate. dg7feq showed the other big trap of the planned regulation: interntl. EU call charges, now capped at 0.19ct/min plus taxes on EU roaming (when calling from abroad). Normally, calling from your own country they are charged very high with many providers at €1/min or more for international calls. If we get rid of the cap and will replace it by a limits to surcharges scheme, a provider will be allowed to charge €1.06/min or more for intertl. calls which used to be capped at 0.19ct (on roaming). Last edited by wolfbln; 02-07-2015 at 10:23..*

	(#93)
andy (Offline) Senior Member Prepaid Prophet Posts: 2,128 Join Date: 10 Dec 2004 Country:	02-07-2015, 10:51 One UK mvno already abolished roaming charges in Europe for this summer. Going by some of the wording published so far about the new arrangement, they could put prices up for a year or more if they decide that this year's promotion only turns up an average result. 5 pence a megabyte now, 8 or 9 pence next year?

	(#95)
NFH (Offline) Senior Member Prepaid Expert Posts: 322 Join Date: 11 Apr 2012 Location: London Country:	02-07-2015, 11:44 @wolfbln, stop differentiating between incremental charges and bundles/allowances/packages. They are each treated the exactly same, in that both are domestic prices. For example, a network might charge €10 for 1GB or it might charge €0.01 for 1MB. It makes no difference whether the network sells domestic usage in 1GB increments or 1MB increments. The principle is the same in that these domestic prices must be applied when roaming, subject to the small surcharges listed above. The Q&A gives no exemption to bundles/allowances/packages. In fact, it even says with respect to usage after 15/06/2017 "For instance, if you pay for a monthly volume of minutes, SMS and data in your country, any voice call, SMS and data session you make while travelling abroad in the EU will be deducted from that volume as if you were at home, with no extra charges." After defining this principle, it then goes on to say "As from April 2016, prices will be even cheaper: operators will be able to charge a small additional amount to domestic prices up to €0.05 per minute of call made, €0.02 per SMS sent, and €0.05 per MB of data (excl. VAT)." This could not be clearer.

	(#96)
wolfbln (Offline) Senior Member Prepaid Expert Posts: 206 Join Date: 14 Jul 2014 Country:	02-07-2015, 12:01 @NFH I'm totally aware that incremental charges and bundles/allowances/packages are all domestic prices (on which these surcharges can be applied). The wording: operators will be able to charge a small additional amount to domestic prices does mean for me, that they are allowed to add a limited surcharge, if they offer their product (bundle, combined package, default rate... whatever) on roaming. But does this necessarily imply that all "domestic" bundles of any given EU operator are required to be offered on EU roaming too? Or can't a operator decide which product is only offered on the home network and which one on EU roaming too? ` I think we can't solve that right now. Let's wait until we get the final draft. But we shouldn't mix up the legislation effective May 2016 and following regulation starting in 2017 going much further. They are two different cups of tea. But the question remains the same in 2017: Are operators required by law to offer their whole portfolio of products on roaming as well? And not just certain tariffs? Last edited by wolfbln; 02-07-2015 at 12:09..

	(#98)
peterdoo (Offline) Senior Member Prepaid Fan Posts: 137 Join Date: 20 Sep 2013 Country:	02-07-2015, 12:42 Why shouldn't they be obliged to apply the current domestic price of the subscriber plus a surcharge while roaming? For a subscriber the domestic price is the one that the customer booked. Either per MB or a package. A surcharge alone would be enough to cover the cost. Over 60 EUR per GB only for the surcharge is more than what you pay in any EU country buying a local SIM. The operators in Slovenia today in many domestic packages include 1 GB data plus unlimited calls in EEA-Roaming for 10 EUR per month (only those months when roaming is used). They certainly do not make losses with these offers, so the price level between the operators must already be very low. I see the change to surcharge as a measure that will benefit operators with high domestic prices and will penalize those with low domestic prices. An operator from a country with high price level will charge a high price to its customer and pay low price to an operator in a low price level country. Higher profit than until now. An operator from a country with low price level will charge a low price to its customer and pay high price to an operator in a high price level country. Less income than until now. This encourages the operators to maintain or migrate towards high prices. Probably the existing better roaming offers will not be canceled because of that. Although we are only talking about a regulation valid for about one year (from 2016 to 2017), I see this new regulation more like a preparation for what we can expect after 2017. Probably some time intervals will be specified (e.g. max. 20 days per year) during which the surcharges will be dropped completelly, using the domestic rate booked at that moment also while roaming. For the rest of the time, the surcharges will continue to be charged.

	(#100)
peterdoo (Offline) Senior Member Prepaid Fan Posts: 137 Join Date: 20 Sep 2013 Country:	02-07-2015, 16:43 I think that a "typical holiday" does not exist. You will find a group of people that do not want to see a phone during a holiday except for emergency use. Another group where during the holiday the usage of mobile phone/data is much higher than at home. Simply because one does not know the place and needs navigation, translation and information services. Also there is time available and a need to keep in touch with home (friends/family, social networks, news, entertainment). Home allowances where one tends to use WiFi at home and/or work and knows to minimize data use when no WiFi is available, are much too low for holiday use. Next group of people that live close to the border and cross it weekly or daily. Those that do not leave the country at all. I am sure, each of them are millions of people. Whatever rule they will establish, there will be large groups that will not be covered. Or if they make it too generous (which I doubt), it would be easy to overcome it, porting the number after certain time (or usage) to another provider.