EU may end all roaming charges - Page 10

andy · 02-07-2015, 10:51

One UK mvno already abolished roaming charges in Europe for this summer.

Going by some of the wording published so far about the new arrangement, they could put prices up for a year or more if they decide that this year's promotion only turns up an average result.

5 pence a megabyte now, 8 or 9 pence next year?

wolfbln · 02-07-2015, 12:01

@NFH

I'm totally aware that incremental charges and bundles/allowances/packages are all domestic prices (on which these surcharges can be applied).

The wording: operators will be able to charge a small additional amount to domestic prices does mean for me, that they are allowed to add a limited surcharge, if they offer their product (bundle, combined package, default rate... whatever) on roaming.

But does this necessarily imply that all "domestic" bundles of any given EU operator are required to be offered on EU roaming too? Or can't a operator decide which product is only offered on the home network and which one on EU roaming too?
`
I think we can't solve that right now. Let's wait until we get the final draft. But we shouldn't mix up the legislation effective May 2016 and following regulation starting in 2017 going much further. They are two different cups of tea. But the question remains the same in 2017: Are operators required by law to offer their whole portfolio of products on roaming as well? And not just certain tariffs?

NFH · 02-07-2015, 12:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfbln

But does this necessarily imply that all "domestic" bundles of any given EU operator are required to be offered on roaming too? Or can't a operator decide which product is only offered on the home network and which on roaming too?

An operator cannot pick and choose which of its domestic prices apply when roaming. It is clear that you will be able to "use your mobile device when travelling in the EU paying the same prices as at home (domestic prices)". Nothing in the press release or Q&A allows operators to pick and choose which domestic prices to apply to roaming. Based on what you are suggesting, an operator could choose to charge €100 per MB on one of its many domestic tariffs, and say that only this price applies when roaming. It would make no sense and would be contrary to the spirit of the new rules. I'm not sure where you got this concept from.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfbln

But we shouldn't mix up the legislation effective May 2016 and following regulation starting in 2017. They are two different cups of tea.

Actually they're very similar. The only difference between 30/04/2016-14/06/2017 and post-15/06/2017 is that in the former period operators will be allowed to add small roaming surcharges.

peterdoo · 02-07-2015, 12:42

Why shouldn't they be obliged to apply the current domestic price of the subscriber plus a surcharge while roaming? For a subscriber the domestic price is the one that the customer booked. Either per MB or a package.

A surcharge alone would be enough to cover the cost. Over 60 EUR per GB only for the surcharge is more than what you pay in any EU country buying a local SIM. The operators in Slovenia today in many domestic packages include 1 GB data plus unlimited calls in EEA-Roaming for 10 EUR per month (only those months when roaming is used). They certainly do not make losses with these offers, so the price level between the operators must already be very low.

I see the change to surcharge as a measure that will benefit operators with high domestic prices and will penalize those with low domestic prices. An operator from a country with high price level will charge a high price to its customer and pay low price to an operator in a low price level country. Higher profit than until now. An operator from a country with low price level will charge a low price to its customer and pay high price to an operator in a high price level country. Less income than until now. This encourages the operators to maintain or migrate towards high prices.

Probably the existing better roaming offers will not be canceled because of that. Although we are only talking about a regulation valid for about one year (from 2016 to 2017), I see this new regulation more like a preparation for what we can expect after 2017. Probably some time intervals will be specified (e.g. max. 20 days per year) during which the surcharges will be dropped completelly, using the domestic rate booked at that moment also while roaming. For the rest of the time, the surcharges will continue to be charged.

NFH · 02-07-2015, 12:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by peterdoo

Probably some time intervals will be specified (e.g. max. 20 days per year) during which the surcharges will be dropped completelly, using the domestic rate booked at that moment also while roaming. For the rest of the time, the surcharges will continue to be charged.

I agree, although I can't see this being calculated on an annual basis because it's so easy to port one's number many times throughout the year and reset the the fair usage counter. The fair usage policy will equally have to cater for a typical annual 2-week holiday. I believe the fair usage policy will not be defined by time but by consumption. Nevertheless it's going to be very hard to create fair usage policies that will work, which is probably why we haven't yet seen any mention of what they might be.

peterdoo · 02-07-2015, 16:43

I think that a "typical holiday" does not exist.

You will find a group of people that do not want to see a phone during a holiday except for emergency use.

Another group where during the holiday the usage of mobile phone/data is much higher than at home. Simply because one does not know the place and needs navigation, translation and information services. Also there is time available and a need to keep in touch with home (friends/family, social networks, news, entertainment). Home allowances where one tends to use WiFi at home and/or work and knows to minimize data use when no WiFi is available, are much too low for holiday use.

Next group of people that live close to the border and cross it weekly or daily.

Those that do not leave the country at all.

I am sure, each of them are millions of people. Whatever rule they will establish, there will be large groups that will not be covered. Or if they make it too generous (which I doubt), it would be easy to overcome it, porting the number after certain time (or usage) to another provider.

NFH · 02-07-2015, 16:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by peterdoo

Next group of people that live close to the border and cross it weekly or daily.

That's the best example of all. The fair usage policy is supposed to prevent abuse and to encourage consumers to have their mobile service based in their country of residence. People in border areas will be very hard to accommodate in the FUP, yet these are one of the groups that the European Commission wants to protect.

wolfbln · 03-07-2015, 21:44

Coming back to the main issue. We should be aware, that we ALL, not only people in boarder areas, may win or lose because of the new policy depending on where we call to.

We still have to wait for the fineprint, but one thing seems to be clear: The EU shifts from a system of price caps to limited surcharges allowed on domestic rates for roaming in 2016. These surcharges may finally disappear under certain new general limits in 2017. That's all we know for sure so far.

There is one problem for everybody, no matter where he lives in the EU/EEA. All calls will be charged according to the local tariff of the provider (plus a possible surcharge in 2016/7). Undoubtly, the EU cap right now reduces drastically the rates when you call on roaming "home", within the roaming country and to another EU country.

Calling "home" may even get cheaper, because you can use your domestic allowance for it, as the EU suggested. But what about the other group of calls? Within the roaming country and to a 3rd EU country? According to the new rules, these calls will be charged based on the internatl. tariff of the provider and possibly not capped anymore. That's the same what they charge when you call from home to another EU country.

Here is a price quote of the leading networks of the UK, France and Germany on prepaid/PAYG plans as standard rate for international calls and SMS placed from this "home" country anywhere in the EU:
UK: EE - pay as you go: £1/min; SMS: 25p
Germany: Telekom - Xtra Card Auslandstarif: €1.99/min; SMS: 19ct
France: Orange - Mobicarte: €0.70/min; SMS: 28ct

Right now, all EU calls are capped at 0.19 ct/min and SMS at 6 ct plus tax.

Again, according to your home provider, calls on roaming within the roaming country and to a 3rd country are international calls charged the same as being called from "home". These calls will face a steep price increase, if the system is shifted from caps and only local tariffs are to be applied. Quote from the press statement: "It means that from 15 June 2017 you can use your mobile device when travelling in the EU paying the same prices as at home (domestic prices)."
Well, sometimes, it's not such a good idea.

wolfbln · 15-07-2015, 16:59

UPDATE: Good News

Today the EU Parliament approved the new roaming regulations which is not a big surprise as they wanted to get rid of the surcharges even earlier.

New details about the regulations for 2016 and 2017 have emerged:
Source: http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/pr...aming-charges/

For the regulation effective 2017:

1.) There will be a Fair Use Policy in place from 2017. This is to prevent "abusive use" of roaming whatever this may be. The new limits of this FUP will be established in Dec 2016.

2.) The new fee for overuse which is going to be imposed can't be very high as it "cannot be higher than the maximum wholesale rate that operators pay for using the networks of other EU countries."

For the regulation effective 2016:

1.) A new rate of incoming roaming for calls will be set at the end of 2015: For calls received, the maximum surcharge will be the weighted average of maximum mobile termination rates across the EU.

2.) The existing caps of 2014 will stay in place for the new rules in 2016: Also after 30 April 2016, the sum of the domestic price and any surcharge cannot in any case be higher than the current retail caps (€0.19 per minute for calls, €0.06 for texts and €0.20 per megabyte of data).

So the fear of price increases for calls within the roaming country and a third country within the EU as told in my contribution above seems to be unfounded.

peterdoo · 22-01-2016, 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfbln

UPDATE: Good News
For the regulation effective 2016:

1.) A new rate of incoming roaming for calls will be set at the end of 2015: For calls received, the maximum surcharge will be the weighted average of maximum mobile termination rates across the EU.

2.) The existing caps of 2014 will stay in place for the new rules in 2016: Also after 30 April 2016, the sum of the domestic price and any surcharge cannot in any case be higher than the current retail caps (€0.19 per minute for calls, €0.06 for texts and €0.20 per megabyte of data).

If I see correctly, the price for the incoming calls in roaming inside EU/EEA from April 30th 2016 on has been set at €0.01 per minute plus VAT:

https://twitter.com/eu_commission/st...36305782833152

The other surcharges are as expected.

	(#1)
andy (Offline) Senior Member Prepaid Prophet Posts: 2,128 Join Date: 10 Dec 2004 Country:	02-07-2015, 10:51 One UK mvno already abolished roaming charges in Europe for this summer. Going by some of the wording published so far about the new arrangement, they could put prices up for a year or more if they decide that this year's promotion only turns up an average result. 5 pence a megabyte now, 8 or 9 pence next year?

	(#2)
wolfbln (Offline) Senior Member Prepaid Expert Posts: 206 Join Date: 14 Jul 2014 Country:	02-07-2015, 12:01 @NFH I'm totally aware that incremental charges and bundles/allowances/packages are all domestic prices (on which these surcharges can be applied). The wording: operators will be able to charge a small additional amount to domestic prices does mean for me, that they are allowed to add a limited surcharge, if they offer their product (bundle, combined package, default rate... whatever) on roaming. But does this necessarily imply that all "domestic" bundles of any given EU operator are required to be offered on EU roaming too? Or can't a operator decide which product is only offered on the home network and which one on EU roaming too? ` I think we can't solve that right now. Let's wait until we get the final draft. But we shouldn't mix up the legislation effective May 2016 and following regulation starting in 2017 going much further. They are two different cups of tea. But the question remains the same in 2017: Are operators required by law to offer their whole portfolio of products on roaming as well? And not just certain tariffs? Last edited by wolfbln; 02-07-2015 at 12:09..

	(#4)
peterdoo (Offline) Senior Member Prepaid Fan Posts: 137 Join Date: 20 Sep 2013 Country:	02-07-2015, 12:42 Why shouldn't they be obliged to apply the current domestic price of the subscriber plus a surcharge while roaming? For a subscriber the domestic price is the one that the customer booked. Either per MB or a package. A surcharge alone would be enough to cover the cost. Over 60 EUR per GB only for the surcharge is more than what you pay in any EU country buying a local SIM. The operators in Slovenia today in many domestic packages include 1 GB data plus unlimited calls in EEA-Roaming for 10 EUR per month (only those months when roaming is used). They certainly do not make losses with these offers, so the price level between the operators must already be very low. I see the change to surcharge as a measure that will benefit operators with high domestic prices and will penalize those with low domestic prices. An operator from a country with high price level will charge a high price to its customer and pay low price to an operator in a low price level country. Higher profit than until now. An operator from a country with low price level will charge a low price to its customer and pay high price to an operator in a high price level country. Less income than until now. This encourages the operators to maintain or migrate towards high prices. Probably the existing better roaming offers will not be canceled because of that. Although we are only talking about a regulation valid for about one year (from 2016 to 2017), I see this new regulation more like a preparation for what we can expect after 2017. Probably some time intervals will be specified (e.g. max. 20 days per year) during which the surcharges will be dropped completelly, using the domestic rate booked at that moment also while roaming. For the rest of the time, the surcharges will continue to be charged.

	(#6)
peterdoo (Offline) Senior Member Prepaid Fan Posts: 137 Join Date: 20 Sep 2013 Country:	02-07-2015, 16:43 I think that a "typical holiday" does not exist. You will find a group of people that do not want to see a phone during a holiday except for emergency use. Another group where during the holiday the usage of mobile phone/data is much higher than at home. Simply because one does not know the place and needs navigation, translation and information services. Also there is time available and a need to keep in touch with home (friends/family, social networks, news, entertainment). Home allowances where one tends to use WiFi at home and/or work and knows to minimize data use when no WiFi is available, are much too low for holiday use. Next group of people that live close to the border and cross it weekly or daily. Those that do not leave the country at all. I am sure, each of them are millions of people. Whatever rule they will establish, there will be large groups that will not be covered. Or if they make it too generous (which I doubt), it would be easy to overcome it, porting the number after certain time (or usage) to another provider.

	(#8)
wolfbln (Offline) Senior Member Prepaid Expert Posts: 206 Join Date: 14 Jul 2014 Country:	03-07-2015, 21:44 Coming back to the main issue. We should be aware, that we ALL, not only people in boarder areas, may win or lose because of the new policy depending on where we call to. We still have to wait for the fineprint, but one thing seems to be clear: The EU shifts from a system of price caps to limited surcharges allowed on domestic rates for roaming in 2016. These surcharges may finally disappear under certain new general limits in 2017. That's all we know for sure so far. There is one problem for everybody, no matter where he lives in the EU/EEA. All calls will be charged according to the local tariff of the provider (plus a possible surcharge in 2016/7). Undoubtly, the EU cap right now reduces drastically the rates when you call on roaming "home", within the roaming country and to another EU country. Calling "home" may even get cheaper, because you can use your domestic allowance for it, as the EU suggested. But what about the other group of calls? Within the roaming country and to a 3rd EU country? According to the new rules, these calls will be charged based on the internatl. tariff of the provider and possibly not capped anymore. That's the same what they charge when you call from home to another EU country. Here is a price quote of the leading networks of the UK, France and Germany on prepaid/PAYG plans as standard rate for international calls and SMS placed from this "home" country anywhere in the EU: UK: EE - pay as you go: £1/min; SMS: 25p Germany: Telekom - Xtra Card Auslandstarif: €1.99/min; SMS: 19ct France: Orange - Mobicarte: €0.70/min; SMS: 28ct Right now, all EU calls are capped at 0.19 ct/min and SMS at 6 ct plus tax. Again, according to your home provider, calls on roaming within the roaming country and to a 3rd country are international calls charged the same as being called from "home". These calls will face a steep price increase, if the system is shifted from caps and only local tariffs are to be applied. Quote from the press statement: "It means that from 15 June 2017 you can use your mobile device when travelling in the EU paying the same prices as at home (domestic prices)." Well, sometimes, it's not such a good idea. Last edited by wolfbln; 03-07-2015 at 22:04..

	(#9)
wolfbln (Offline) Senior Member Prepaid Expert Posts: 206 Join Date: 14 Jul 2014 Country:	15-07-2015, 16:59 UPDATE: Good News Today the EU Parliament approved the new roaming regulations which is not a big surprise as they wanted to get rid of the surcharges even earlier. New details about the regulations for 2016 and 2017 have emerged: Source: http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/pr...aming-charges/ For the regulation effective 2017: 1.) There will be a Fair Use Policy in place from 2017. This is to prevent "abusive use" of roaming whatever this may be. The new limits of this FUP will be established in Dec 2016. 2.) The new fee for overuse which is going to be imposed can't be very high as it "cannot be higher than the maximum wholesale rate that operators pay for using the networks of other EU countries." For the regulation effective 2016: 1.) A new rate of incoming roaming for calls will be set at the end of 2015: For calls received, the maximum surcharge will be the weighted average of maximum mobile termination rates across the EU. 2.) The existing caps of 2014 will stay in place for the new rules in 2016: Also after 30 April 2016, the sum of the domestic price and any surcharge cannot in any case be higher than the current retail caps (€0.19 per minute for calls, €0.06 for texts and €0.20 per megabyte of data). So the fear of price increases for calls within the roaming country and a third country within the EU as told in my contribution above seems to be unfounded.