EU may end all roaming charges - Page 9

wco81 · 30-06-2015, 19:27

The other thing is that a lot of PAYG products do not include 4G access either.

So if you get an Easter European SIM which only includes 2G and 3G on the home network, I would imagine you'd only get 2G and 3G roaming in a Western European country.

wolfbln · 01-07-2015, 10:28

We have moved a giant step forward, but have not reached the goal yet.

1.) New roaming caps from May 2016
2ct per SMS and 5 ct per MB data (plus taxes). For data at least it's a huge advancement. We are right now at 0.20 € per MB effective at €0.23/MB and will go down to somewhere near €0.06/MB. That's still more than data in national packages, but often less than the domestic default rate of providers. SMS rates will be in fact mostly below domestic rates.

2.) "Abolition" of roaming charges in 2017?
This is still unclear. We may get rid of all roaming charges in 2017 but only under certain conditions. "Permanent" roaming will not be possible on the new tariff without roaming fees. But really getting rid of all roaming charges per definition necessarily means and enables "permanent" roaming.

So it's very much up to the fine print, the EU institutions have yet to agree on.
It's sad but true: new limits for the tariffs without roaming fees will probably be established, a kind of EU Fair Use Policy:
- either for a max. volume of minutes, SMS' or MBs anyone can use on that tariff
- or a max. period of time anyone can use his/her domestic rate on roaming (e.g. per year).

Data is sold at very different rates in the various EU countries. In Cyprus more than 20 times as much is charged compared to the Baltic states.
So there will be pressure to break these rules using SIM cards from another country permanently.
One way to break these rules/limts can possibly be a "rotating" system of e.g. different data SIM cards to be used on roaming.

The worst case for the EU consumer would be a very low allowance of "free" roaming volume (actually meaning roaming at the domestic rates) and everything consumed beyond will be charged much higher. In the negotiations a 100 MB limit was mentioned which is just a joke in these days. If the 2016 caps are maintained in 2017 and later, the surcharges will at least be limited lower.

So let's celebrate for 2016 and wait what is yet to come for 2017.

dg7feq · 01-07-2015, 10:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfbln

We have moved a giant step forward, but have not reached the goal yet.

1.) New roaming caps from May 2016
2ct per SMS and 5 ct per MB data (plus taxes). For data at least it's a huge advancement. We are right now at 0.20 € per MB effective at €0.23/MB and will go down to somewhere near €0.06/MB. That's still more than data in national packages, but often less than the default rate of national providers. SMS rates will be in fact mostly below national rates.

you missed that the 2ct/min or 5ct/MB is the surcharge to the national tariffs, not the end customer rate.

wolfbln · 01-07-2015, 19:26

Hi dg7feq

I've just realized the same, but it's really hard to believe.
Up to now, we had caps, that the EU imposed on roaming.
For data in 2014/5 it is 20ct per MB plus tax.

In the new decision, they don't speak about caps but surcharges:
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release...15-5275_en.htm

Quote: As from April 2016, prices will be even cheaper: operators will be able to charge a small additional amount to domestic prices up to €0.05 per minute of call made, €0.02 per SMS sent, and €0.05 per MB of data (excl. VAT).

If this is true, the reporting on most news wires was wrong: no new lower CAPS, but a limit to SURCHARGES for roaming.

But this absolutely backfires in many markets:
In Germany and some other markets domestic data for instance are sold at a very high default rate up to €0.24 per MB. That's sometimes even above the current roaming cap of €0.20 plus tax. If no new CAPS are to be introduced, but they are replaced by limits to SURCHARGES which will be limited to €0.05 per MB, they can even charge €0.30 per MB (€0.24 domestic rate + €0.06 surcharge) because it's always referred to the default data rate.
There is no obligation to offer packages. Furthermore, offering roaming packages can even become dangerous for the providers, as they may refer to a domestic package. Then as far as I understand the surcharge principle, data must not be more than 5ct/MB more expensive. But how do you calculate a surcharge limit, when you don't have a equal domestic package on offer? You can only use the default data rate of the provider.

I hope this is not going to be true!!!

dg7feq · 02-07-2015, 08:37

Yes, most websites overlooked the smallprint and just copied the first few lines.
For the customer this can indeed be a sharp increase in pricing, especially for international calling within EU, which is currently also included in the capped pricing - but often very high in our domestic tariffs.

NFH · 02-07-2015, 08:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfbln

In Germany and some other markets domestic data for instance are sold at a very high default rate up to €0.24 per MB. That's sometimes even above the current roaming cap of €0.20 plus tax. If no new CAPS are to be introduced, but they are replaced by limits to SURCHARGES which will be limited to €0.05 per MB, they can even charge €0.30 per MB (€0.24 domestic rate + €0.06 surcharge) because it's always referred to the default data rate.
There is no obligation to offer packages. Furthermore, offering roaming packages can even become dangerous for the providers, as they may refer to a domestic package. Then as far as I understand the surcharge principle, data must not be more than 5ct/MB more expensive. But how do you calculate a surcharge limit, when you don't have a equal domestic package on offer? You can only use the default data rate of the provider.

You have misunderstood. The network can charge you only €0.05+VAT per megabyte on top of what you usually pay. For example, if your network charges you €7 for 1GB, then any roaming usage still uses up your 1GB allowance but your network can surcharge you €0.05+VAT per megabyte on top of this.

Except for the €0.05/MB surcharge, if the network applies a different price for roaming from the price for domestic usage (and a different price includes non-application of bundles and allowances), then it would be in breach of the new regulations. The regulations make no distinction between bundled charges and incremental charges; they are both enforceable as domestic charges when roaming.

wolfbln · 02-07-2015, 09:42

@NFH
You may be right in theory. But most packages for "domestic" use that are offered in each EU country are valid within the own country only. Right now, there are very few "roaming" packages on the market. Still, a provider selling 1 GB for €10 domestic can go up to around €70 (10€ plus 1000*0.05ct plus tax) for the same roaming package.

I don't see any policy enforced on the provider that the same domestic package is required to be offered on EU roaming too (possibly with a surcharge of up to 5ct/MB plus tax). But your statement implies that I can use my domestic package allowance abroad too, which is mostly not true up to know. Have I missed a planned regulation, that providers are required to open their "domestic" package allowance to EU roaming?

Often a default rate per MB is the only rate offered for EU roaming. Only very few providers actually sell "roaming packages".
The DOMESTIC default rate for data can be as low as 1p per MB on Three UK, but is e.g. 24ct per MB on many European providers. This rate is absurdly high in some countries to force users into bundles.

So for EU roaming on default rate, Three UK will be only allowed to charge around 6p/MB (1p domestic + max. 5p surcharge), but many EU providers can go up to 30c/MB (24ct/MB default rate plus max. 6ct surcharge). This obviously adds up to higher prices than the current EU cap of around 23ct/MB with some providers. This new legislation can easily be circumvented by not offering "roaming packages" (or not opening their "domestic" packages to roaming), so every customer has to stay on the high default rate.

dg7feq showed the other big trap of the planned regulation: interntl. EU call charges, now capped at 0.19ct/min plus taxes on EU roaming (when calling from abroad). Normally, calling from your own country they are charged very high with many providers at €1/min or more for international calls. If we get rid of the cap and will replace it by a limits to surcharges scheme, a provider will be allowed to charge €1.06/min or more for intertl. calls which used to be capped at 0.19ct (on roaming).

NFH · 02-07-2015, 09:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfbln

Have I missed a planned regulation, that providers are required to offer their "domestic" package allowance on EU roaming too?

Yes. See http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release...15-5275_en.htm

"As from April 2016, prices will be even cheaper: operators will be able to charge a small additional amount to domestic prices up to €0.05 per minute of call made, €0.02 per SMS sent, and €0.05 per MB of data (excl. VAT)."

Domestic prices include bundles, packages and allowances. It makes no difference how a network structures its domestic prices. Its domestic prices must apply when roaming from April 2016, subject to these small surcharges.

wolfbln · 02-07-2015, 11:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by NFH

Yes. See http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release...15-5275_en.htm

"As from April 2016, prices will be even cheaper: operators will be able to charge a small additional amount to domestic prices up to €0.05 per minute of call made, €0.02 per SMS sent, and €0.05 per MB of data (excl. VAT)."

Domestic prices include bundles, packages and allowances. It makes no difference how a network structures its domestic prices. Its domestic prices must apply when roaming from April 2016, subject to these small surcharges.

Sure it does make a huge difference how domestic prices and portfolio are structured because the EU gets rid of general price caps and introduces limited surcharges to the domestic tariffs for EU roaming. Then its up to the domestic pricing structure of each operator how much they charge for roaming.

Do you read from the article mentioned above that the same domestic bundle is required to be offered on roaming too (with the applicable surchage) or that "domestic" bundle volume can be used abroad in the EU?
For instance: provider A offers 500 MB "for domestic use only" at a certain price. Do you really think this given legislation forces this provider to offer the same package plus surcharge for roaming??? Or the domestic bundle needs to be opened up for EU roaming??? I really can't read that from the given EU press statement. Can a provider really be forced to roam by this legislation? Or can't they keep on selling bundles which are valid on their own networks only like today?

Now one is for sure, everybody offers a default rate, when no bundle is bought or for overuse. Getting rid of the 0.23€ per MB cap means that some providers may charge their domestic default rate at 0.24€/MB plus a 0.06€/MB surcharge they are allowed to impose for roaming in 2016. I can't see how "prices will be even cheaper" based on this regulation.

NFH · 02-07-2015, 11:44

@wolfbln, stop differentiating between incremental charges and bundles/allowances/packages. They are each treated the exactly same, in that both are domestic prices.

For example, a network might charge €10 for 1GB or it might charge €0.01 for 1MB. It makes no difference whether the network sells domestic usage in 1GB increments or 1MB increments. The principle is the same in that these domestic prices must be applied when roaming, subject to the small surcharges listed above.

The Q&A gives no exemption to bundles/allowances/packages. In fact, it even says with respect to usage after 15/06/2017 "For instance, if you pay for a monthly volume of minutes, SMS and data in your country, any voice call, SMS and data session you make while travelling abroad in the EU will be deducted from that volume as if you were at home, with no extra charges." After defining this principle, it then goes on to say "As from April 2016, prices will be even cheaper: operators will be able to charge a small additional amount to domestic prices up to €0.05 per minute of call made, €0.02 per SMS sent, and €0.05 per MB of data (excl. VAT)." This could not be clearer.

	(#1)
wco81 (Offline) Senior Member Prepaid Expert Posts: 304 Join Date: 17 Jun 2007 Country:	30-06-2015, 19:27 The other thing is that a lot of PAYG products do not include 4G access either. So if you get an Easter European SIM which only includes 2G and 3G on the home network, I would imagine you'd only get 2G and 3G roaming in a Western European country.

	(#2)
wolfbln (Offline) Senior Member Prepaid Expert Posts: 206 Join Date: 14 Jul 2014 Country:	01-07-2015, 10:28 We have moved a giant step forward, but have not reached the goal yet. 1.) New roaming caps from May 2016 2ct per SMS and 5 ct per MB data (plus taxes). For data at least it's a huge advancement. We are right now at 0.20 € per MB effective at €0.23/MB and will go down to somewhere near €0.06/MB. That's still more than data in national packages, but often less than the domestic default rate of providers. SMS rates will be in fact mostly below domestic rates. 2.) "Abolition" of roaming charges in 2017? This is still unclear. We may get rid of all roaming charges in 2017 but only under certain conditions. "Permanent" roaming will not be possible on the new tariff without roaming fees. But really getting rid of all roaming charges per definition necessarily means and enables "permanent" roaming. So it's very much up to the fine print, the EU institutions have yet to agree on. It's sad but true: new limits for the tariffs without roaming fees will probably be established, a kind of EU Fair Use Policy: - either for a max. volume of minutes, SMS' or MBs anyone can use on that tariff - or a max. period of time anyone can use his/her domestic rate on roaming (e.g. per year). Data is sold at very different rates in the various EU countries. In Cyprus more than 20 times as much is charged compared to the Baltic states. So there will be pressure to break these rules using SIM cards from another country permanently. One way to break these rules/limts can possibly be a "rotating" system of e.g. different data SIM cards to be used on roaming. The worst case for the EU consumer would be a very low allowance of "free" roaming volume (actually meaning roaming at the domestic rates) and everything consumed beyond will be charged much higher. In the negotiations a 100 MB limit was mentioned which is just a joke in these days. If the 2016 caps are maintained in 2017 and later, the surcharges will at least be limited lower. So let's celebrate for 2016 and wait what is yet to come for 2017. Last edited by wolfbln; 01-07-2015 at 10:48..

	(#4)
wolfbln (Offline) Senior Member Prepaid Expert Posts: 206 Join Date: 14 Jul 2014 Country:	01-07-2015, 19:26 Hi dg7feq I've just realized the same, but it's really hard to believe. Up to now, we had caps, that the EU imposed on roaming. For data in 2014/5 it is 20ct per MB plus tax. In the new decision, they don't speak about caps but surcharges: http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release...15-5275_en.htm Quote: As from April 2016, prices will be even cheaper: operators will be able to charge a small additional amount to domestic prices up to €0.05 per minute of call made, €0.02 per SMS sent, and €0.05 per MB of data (excl. VAT). If this is true, the reporting on most news wires was wrong: no new lower CAPS, but a limit to SURCHARGES for roaming. But this absolutely backfires in many markets: In Germany and some other markets domestic data for instance are sold at a very high default rate up to €0.24 per MB. That's sometimes even above the current roaming cap of €0.20 plus tax. If no new CAPS are to be introduced, but they are replaced by limits to SURCHARGES which will be limited to €0.05 per MB, they can even charge €0.30 per MB (€0.24 domestic rate + €0.06 surcharge) because it's always referred to the default data rate. There is no obligation to offer packages. Furthermore, offering roaming packages can even become dangerous for the providers, as they may refer to a domestic package. Then as far as I understand the surcharge principle, data must not be more than 5ct/MB more expensive. But how do you calculate a surcharge limit, when you don't have a equal domestic package on offer? You can only use the default data rate of the provider. I hope this is not going to be true!!! Last edited by wolfbln; 01-07-2015 at 19:34..

	(#5)
dg7feq (Offline) Senior Member Prepaid Guru Posts: 1,164 Join Date: 04 Feb 2006 Location: Germany Country:	02-07-2015, 08:37 Yes, most websites overlooked the smallprint and just copied the first few lines. For the customer this can indeed be a sharp increase in pricing, especially for international calling within EU, which is currently also included in the capped pricing - but often very high in our domestic tariffs. Germany: o2 blue all-in L, simquadrat Thailand: truemove (phone+sms+wifi) International: xxSim+372, toggle +44/+49/+41/+31 Phones: Huawei Mate7, Huawei P9

	(#7)
wolfbln (Offline) Senior Member Prepaid Expert Posts: 206 Join Date: 14 Jul 2014 Country:	02-07-2015, 09:42 @NFH You may be right in theory. But most packages for "domestic" use that are offered in each EU country are valid within the own country only. Right now, there are very few "roaming" packages on the market. Still, a provider selling 1 GB for €10 domestic can go up to around €70 (10€ plus 10000.05ct plus tax) for the same roaming package. I don't see any policy enforced on the provider that the same domestic package is required to be offered on EU roaming too (possibly with a surcharge of up to 5ct/MB plus tax). But your statement implies that I can use my domestic package allowance abroad too, which is mostly not true up to know. Have I missed a planned regulation, that providers are required to open their "domestic" package allowance to EU roaming? Often a default rate per MB is the only rate offered for EU roaming. Only very few providers actually sell "roaming packages". The DOMESTIC default rate for data can be as low as 1p per MB on Three UK, but is e.g. 24ct per MB on many European providers. This rate is absurdly high in some countries to force users into bundles. So for EU roaming on default rate, Three UK will be only allowed to charge around 6p/MB (1p domestic + max. 5p surcharge), but many EU providers can go up to 30c/MB (24ct/MB default rate plus max. 6ct surcharge). This obviously adds up to higher prices than the current EU cap of around 23ct/MB with some providers. This new legislation can easily be circumvented by not offering "roaming packages" (or not opening their "domestic" packages to roaming), so every customer has to stay on the high default rate. dg7feq showed the other big trap of the planned regulation: interntl. EU call charges, now capped at 0.19ct/min plus taxes on EU roaming (when calling from abroad). Normally, calling from your own country they are charged very high with many providers at €1/min or more for international calls. If we get rid of the cap and will replace it by a limits to surcharges scheme, a provider will be allowed to charge €1.06/min or more for intertl. calls which used to be capped at 0.19ct (on roaming). Last edited by wolfbln; 02-07-2015 at 10:23..*

	(#10)
NFH (Offline) Senior Member Prepaid Expert Posts: 322 Join Date: 11 Apr 2012 Location: London Country:	02-07-2015, 11:44 @wolfbln, stop differentiating between incremental charges and bundles/allowances/packages. They are each treated the exactly same, in that both are domestic prices. For example, a network might charge €10 for 1GB or it might charge €0.01 for 1MB. It makes no difference whether the network sells domestic usage in 1GB increments or 1MB increments. The principle is the same in that these domestic prices must be applied when roaming, subject to the small surcharges listed above. The Q&A gives no exemption to bundles/allowances/packages. In fact, it even says with respect to usage after 15/06/2017 "For instance, if you pay for a monthly volume of minutes, SMS and data in your country, any voice call, SMS and data session you make while travelling abroad in the EU will be deducted from that volume as if you were at home, with no extra charges." After defining this principle, it then goes on to say "As from April 2016, prices will be even cheaper: operators will be able to charge a small additional amount to domestic prices up to €0.05 per minute of call made, €0.02 per SMS sent, and €0.05 per MB of data (excl. VAT)." This could not be clearer.