UK Government tried to kill Eurotariffs

MATHA531 · **UK Government tried to kill Eurotariffs -** 28-10-2007, 17:17

Take a look:

http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/...cle2733670.ece

Perhaps we might have gotten €0,15 reception of calls throughout Europe (or even free which was one of the things suggested) if the UK government had not been so strong in trying to protect the interests of the telcoms at the expense of the public.

DRNewcomb · 28-10-2007, 22:55

This is the "Labor" UK Government?

andy · 29-10-2007, 02:29

When the American Government tries to force through cheap roaming at 20 cents a minute and finds its path blocked by the UK or any other administration, or stops the USA being one of the world's most expensive for roaming, either for visitors there or its own citizens travelling abroad, then there may be more reason to complain, but ...

Some journalist at The Times has apparently taken a year to do some research, as you could read similar suggestions then.

No, the European Union has 27 countries, and the large networks were also canvassing other governments regulators and the various EU bodies

The proposed or hoped-for level may have been 16.5 cents incoming actually, plus vat taking it to 20 or so. And don't forget that further drops are lined up in the next two years

Today the same newspaper includes the news that an affiliate commission based price comparison site says that O2 has just introduced 20 pence a minute charges for non-geographic numbers that were previously free.

No, the calls were previously in inclusive minutes, not actually free, and the changes were announced by O2 2 months ago and implemented a month ago, and some users have chosen and were allowed to end contracts early, perhaps without The Times journalists noticing

The same article today also quotes another source, a similarly commission-based operation that has some rather odd churning practices i.e from company A to B then back to A, which says it takes up to 5 days to transfer a number from one UK network to another, and this is why hardly anyone ever switches ntworks .......... errrm, sure, but they also seem to overlook those who take out contracts with new numbers, and are perhaps only looking at numbers of a market they feel they are missing out on

I don't know why journalists lap up press releases which land on their desks without moderating them with their own knowledge and research ...
__

Some of the debate propaganda and negotiation on roaming fees has been about which is more effective, regulation or a competitive market. It might seem paradoxical that a UK government that some outsiders might view as left-wing is so strongly for a market, even if we think this one's been fixed, but don't forget that arguably they deregulated and introduced competition in utility industries rather more than their predecessors who only sold the monopolies.

And whilst it's certainly sometimes appeared that the networks have been stuck in the mud ...

Vodafone has had Passport for about two and a half years. Perhaps part of its position was that it wanted this to remain as an option it could still offer rather than the Eurotariff to be centrally imposed as mandatory for everyone. I don't know, but a couple of contextless sentences snatched from a civil servant's memo or note of a phone conversation don't clarify that.

2 other UK networks already have lower charges than the new Eurotariff, namely 3 with 15 eurocent incoming calls throughout Europe or actually free on sister 3 networks, and O2, which also has a free incoming calls option, something which was first announced a year ago for one roamed country, and last January for all of Europe.

If I were to travel to Italy, I (or anyone) could roam 3 UK on 3 there and call UK landlines and mobiles ad hoc for 12 pence a minute, or with 400 minutes a month for £15 or 700 minutes for £21; the latter is 6 US cents a minute. Add under a cent a minute for callthrough to USA ...

Try reading that in The Times. Their only really valid point today is that roaming fees have been cut for calls but not data. Pretending today that 35 pence a minute to an 0871 number is a recent increase is simply ignorance

MATHA531 · 29-10-2007, 05:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by andy

When the American Government tries to force through cheap roaming at 20 cents a minute and finds its path blocked by the UK or any other administration, or stops the USA being one of the world's most expensive for roaming, either for visitors there or its own citizens travelling abroad, then there may be more reason to complain, but ...

Some journalist at The Times has apparently taken a year to do some research, as you could read similar suggestions then.

No, the European Union has 27 countries, and the large networks were also canvassing other governments regulators and the various EU bodies

The proposed or hoped-for level may have been 16.5 cents incoming actually, plus vat taking it to 20 or so. And don't forget that further drops are lined up in the next two years

Today the same newspaper includes the news that an affiliate commission based price comparison site says that O2 has just introduced 20 pence a minute charges for non-geographic numbers that were previously free.

No, the calls were previously in inclusive minutes, not actually free, and the changes were announced by O2 2 months ago and implemented a month ago, and some users have chosen and were allowed to end contracts early, perhaps without The Times journalists noticing

The same article today also quotes another source, a similarly commission-based operation that has some rather odd churning practices i.e from company A to B then back to A, which says it takes up to 5 days to transfer a number from one UK network to another, and this is why hardly anyone ever switches ntworks .......... errrm, sure, but they also seem to overlook those who take out contracts with new numbers, and are perhaps only looking at numbers of a market they feel they are missing out on

I don't know why journalists lap up press releases which land on their desks without moderating them with their own knowledge and research ...
__

Some of the debate propaganda and negotiation on roaming fees has been about which is more effective, regulation or a competitive market. It might seem paradoxical that a UK government that some outsiders might view as left-wing is so strongly for a market, even if we think this one's been fixed, but don't forget that arguably they deregulated and introduced competition in utility industries rather more than their predecessors who only sold the monopolies.

And whilst it's certainly sometimes appeared that the networks have been stuck in the mud ...

Vodafone has had Passport for about two and a half years. Perhaps part of its position was that it wanted this to remain as an option it could still offer rather than the Eurotariff to be centrally imposed as mandatory for everyone. I don't know, but a couple of contextless sentences snatched from a civil servant's memo or note of a phone conversation don't clarify that.

2 other UK networks already have lower charges than the new Eurotariff, namely 3 with 15 eurocent incoming calls throughout Europe or actually free on sister 3 networks, and O2, which also has a free incoming calls option, something which was first announced a year ago for one roamed country, and last January for all of Europe.

If I were to travel to Italy, I (or anyone) could roam 3 UK on 3 there and call UK landlines and mobiles ad hoc for 12 pence a minute, or with 400 minutes a month for £15 or 700 minutes for £21; the latter is 6 US cents a minute. Add under a cent a minute for callthrough to USA ...

Try reading that in The Times. Their only really valid point today is that roaming fees have been cut for calls but not data. Pretending today that 35 pence a minute to an 0871 number is a recent increase is simply ignorance

The only quibble I might have with what you say, and it certainly is no business of mine (I just posted the article as I found it interesting), is whether, for example, vodafone would have introduced passport if the eu had not announced the possibility of regulating intra eu roaming fees.

I've always wondered , and call me dumb, how, for example, vodafone UK could justify such high fees if one were roaming on vodafone italy because, as I understand it, part of the idea behind roaming fees is to reimburse the company one is roaming on for use of its facilities...to me this seems like taking money out of your left pocket and putting it into your right pocket as vodafone is vodafone whether it be UK or Italy...

But you're right, of course. You wouldn't expect the current US government to support regulation such as this so T Mobile USA a fully owned subsidiary of Deutsch (sp.) Telcom can continue to charge 99¢/minute to roam on T Mobile UK who is fully owned by the same company and tell us that is to reimburse the UK company to allow roaming on its network....abut 99.9% of the people in the USA could care less as they don't have a clue about these things.

Didn't mean to get your ire up on this....I had been looking through the Times to see if anybody cared about the Giants-Dolphins game being played in London (it was an awful game) and stumbled across the article and found it interersting.

andy · 29-10-2007, 11:47

In the consultation period one of the sources identified in that article (INTUG) submitted a suggestion that incoming calls should be free, and outgoing calls the same as the normal price for ringing a landline in the home country, as the wholesale cost would be under 5 cents a munte. This seems to rather neglect the fact that calls to other mobiles are more expensive than landlines.

Quote:

We are sure that the mobile industry will say that there needs to be a price premium for roaming over national calls, since there are additional costs. The additional costs are those incurred for carrying a call between EU countries on terrestrial networks. Volume prices for such calls are on offer to business customers for less than 5€cents a minute; clearly wholesale costs are somewhat lower than this. Hence INTUG concludes that the marginal cost of roaming over the cost of providing national services is very small. In the interests of promoting a single pan-EU market in telecoms, we therefore suggest that roaming prices within the EU should be pegged to the same price as those charged for calls from mobiles to fixed numbers within the operators home state, and as a consequence, the practice of charging users for receiving a call on their mobile within the EU should also be abolished and prohibited. This action would result in a level playing field for both businesses and consumers compared with the US, where flat rate price packages when roaming across states have been available for some years.

http://ec.europa.eu/information_soci...docs/comments/

I think that this is perhaps a little unrealistic, as even when not roaming termination fees for European mobiles are higher than for landlines, and almost all more than 5 cents a minute. Have they extracted this from the comparison with the USA, with landlines and mobiles the same rate to the caller; have they forgotten that incoming calls there are chargeable to the receiver?

MATHA531 · 29-10-2007, 12:10

Andy...just to clarify your last sentence...in the USA receiving calls on a landline is free....receiving calls on a cell phone does cost the receiver what they call here for lack of a better name air time (although on most contracts, unlike prepaid which is at present not as big in the USA as it is in Europe, one has so many minutes with free nights, weekends whatever that it hardly matters).

andy · 29-10-2007, 13:45

Sorry I forgot to specify for cellphones. I just thought it odd that the writer was on about under 5 cents wholesale termination costs for landlines, then stepped to a position of therefore wanting roaming calls to mobiles based on similar rates. I don't know if the muddled thinking of then comparing instances from the USA was in the writer's choice of words or only my reading of it.

Going back to Vodafone and Passport, to begin with it was available only for their own networks, which isn't too surprising. I had a conversation with people at Orange a few years back (before V. Passport) and asked why couldn't they offer cheaper roaming on their other networks, as they were then catching all the revenue instead of paying to a rival. The reply was that the competition authorities would block it as unfair, the kind of doublethink that you never quite decide if you believe or not. But maybe that is why Passport now has an arrangement in all EU countries. Pity if they can't eventually reduce the connection fee, which is fine on long calls but actually more expensive on a series of calls under a minute or two.

Friends on O2 contracts have managed to be offered My Europe Extra free from the Retentions Team on renewal, but cutting the monthly fee on prepaid looks harder to do unless the competition hots up some more; maybe it needs Orange and T-mobile to wake up and produce some ideas.

Malkav · 30-10-2007, 00:19

knowing how slow the uk mobile market seems to be with regard to changing price plans etc incl roaming rates on there own initiative i don't think it will be for a while yet. However saying that with the expansion of mvno's and three's sudden interest in being a proper mobile phone company lets hope that orange and t-mobile take note and expidite matters accordingly.

Richard10002 · 03-11-2007, 20:52

"knowing how slow the uk mobile market seems to be with regard to changing price plans etc incl roaming rates on there own initiative i don't think it will be for a while yet. "

This is the way most large UK businesses work - they screw the customer and provide poor service, (through cost cutting), until forced either by legislation, or competition, to play ball - and the UK government have shown that they have no interest in assisting with legislation.

3 have been persistently innovative and havd made some incredible offers but, at least historically, their call and connection quality was poor, so inroads were difficult.

Looks like 3 are coming good, and maybe we will get some reasonable, rather than rip off, deals in the not too distant future.

Malkav · 03-11-2007, 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard10002

"knowing how slow the uk mobile market seems to be with regard to changing price plans etc incl roaming rates on there own initiative i don't think it will be for a while yet. "

This is the way most large UK businesses work - they screw the customer and provide poor service, (through cost cutting), until forced either by legislation, or competition, to play ball - and the UK government have shown that they have no interest in assisting with legislation.

3 have been persistently innovative and havd made some incredible offers but, at least historically, their call and connection quality was poor, so inroads were difficult.

Looks like 3 are coming good, and maybe we will get some reasonable, rather than rip off, deals in the not too distant future.

you do realise....you have just jinxed yourself right now :-p

	(#1)
MATHA531 (Offline) Senior Member Prepaid Specialist Posts: 869 Join Date: 15 Oct 2004 Country:	UK Government tried to kill Eurotariffs - 28-10-2007, 17:17 Take a look: http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/...cle2733670.ece Perhaps we might have gotten €0,15 reception of calls throughout Europe (or even free which was one of the things suggested) if the UK government had not been so strong in trying to protect the interests of the telcoms at the expense of the public.

	(#2)
DRNewcomb (Offline) Senior Member Prepaid Professionist Posts: 1,465 Join Date: 27 Feb 2004 Location: Mississippi, USA Country:	28-10-2007, 22:55 This is the "Labor" UK Government?

	(#3)
andy (Offline) Senior Member Prepaid Prophet Posts: 2,128 Join Date: 10 Dec 2004 Country:	29-10-2007, 02:29 When the American Government tries to force through cheap roaming at 20 cents a minute and finds its path blocked by the UK or any other administration, or stops the USA being one of the world's most expensive for roaming, either for visitors there or its own citizens travelling abroad, then there may be more reason to complain, but ... Some journalist at The Times has apparently taken a year to do some research, as you could read similar suggestions then. No, the European Union has 27 countries, and the large networks were also canvassing other governments regulators and the various EU bodies The proposed or hoped-for level may have been 16.5 cents incoming actually, plus vat taking it to 20 or so. And don't forget that further drops are lined up in the next two years Today the same newspaper includes the news that an affiliate commission based price comparison site says that O2 has just introduced 20 pence a minute charges for non-geographic numbers that were previously free. No, the calls were previously in inclusive minutes, not actually free, and the changes were announced by O2 2 months ago and implemented a month ago, and some users have chosen and were allowed to end contracts early, perhaps without The Times journalists noticing The same article today also quotes another source, a similarly commission-based operation that has some rather odd churning practices i.e from company A to B then back to A, which says it takes up to 5 days to transfer a number from one UK network to another, and this is why hardly anyone ever switches ntworks .......... errrm, sure, but they also seem to overlook those who take out contracts with new numbers, and are perhaps only looking at numbers of a market they feel they are missing out on I don't know why journalists lap up press releases which land on their desks without moderating them with their own knowledge and research ... __ Some of the debate propaganda and negotiation on roaming fees has been about which is more effective, regulation or a competitive market. It might seem paradoxical that a UK government that some outsiders might view as left-wing is so strongly for a market, even if we think this one's been fixed, but don't forget that arguably they deregulated and introduced competition in utility industries rather more than their predecessors who only sold the monopolies. And whilst it's certainly sometimes appeared that the networks have been stuck in the mud ... Vodafone has had Passport for about two and a half years. Perhaps part of its position was that it wanted this to remain as an option it could still offer rather than the Eurotariff to be centrally imposed as mandatory for everyone. I don't know, but a couple of contextless sentences snatched from a civil servant's memo or note of a phone conversation don't clarify that. 2 other UK networks already have lower charges than the new Eurotariff, namely 3 with 15 eurocent incoming calls throughout Europe or actually free on sister 3 networks, and O2, which also has a free incoming calls option, something which was first announced a year ago for one roamed country, and last January for all of Europe. If I were to travel to Italy, I (or anyone) could roam 3 UK on 3 there and call UK landlines and mobiles ad hoc for 12 pence a minute, or with 400 minutes a month for £15 or 700 minutes for £21; the latter is 6 US cents a minute. Add under a cent a minute for callthrough to USA ... Try reading that in The Times. Their only really valid point today is that roaming fees have been cut for calls but not data. Pretending today that 35 pence a minute to an 0871 number is a recent increase is simply ignorance Last edited by andy; 29-10-2007 at 02:56..

	(#6)
MATHA531 (Offline) Senior Member Prepaid Specialist Posts: 869 Join Date: 15 Oct 2004 Country:	29-10-2007, 12:10 Andy...just to clarify your last sentence...in the USA receiving calls on a landline is free....receiving calls on a cell phone does cost the receiver what they call here for lack of a better name air time (although on most contracts, unlike prepaid which is at present not as big in the USA as it is in Europe, one has so many minutes with free nights, weekends whatever that it hardly matters).

	(#7)
andy (Offline) Senior Member Prepaid Prophet Posts: 2,128 Join Date: 10 Dec 2004 Country:	29-10-2007, 13:45 Sorry I forgot to specify for cellphones. I just thought it odd that the writer was on about under 5 cents wholesale termination costs for landlines, then stepped to a position of therefore wanting roaming calls to mobiles based on similar rates. I don't know if the muddled thinking of then comparing instances from the USA was in the writer's choice of words or only my reading of it. Going back to Vodafone and Passport, to begin with it was available only for their own networks, which isn't too surprising. I had a conversation with people at Orange a few years back (before V. Passport) and asked why couldn't they offer cheaper roaming on their other networks, as they were then catching all the revenue instead of paying to a rival. The reply was that the competition authorities would block it as unfair, the kind of doublethink that you never quite decide if you believe or not. But maybe that is why Passport now has an arrangement in all EU countries. Pity if they can't eventually reduce the connection fee, which is fine on long calls but actually more expensive on a series of calls under a minute or two. Friends on O2 contracts have managed to be offered My Europe Extra free from the Retentions Team on renewal, but cutting the monthly fee on prepaid looks harder to do unless the competition hots up some more; maybe it needs Orange and T-mobile to wake up and produce some ideas. Last edited by andy; 29-10-2007 at 13:58..

	(#8)
Malkav (Offline) Senior Member Prepaid Expert Posts: 267 Join Date: 09 Jun 2006 Location: Malkavian University Country:	30-10-2007, 00:19 knowing how slow the uk mobile market seems to be with regard to changing price plans etc incl roaming rates on there own initiative i don't think it will be for a while yet. However saying that with the expansion of mvno's and three's sudden interest in being a proper mobile phone company lets hope that orange and t-mobile take note and expidite matters accordingly. Current networks: Orange 3g UK, 3 pay monthly, Virgin pay as you go UK, 3UK payg, Tesco payg, Asda mobile Active phones: Blackberry Torch (02), Google Nexus one (Vodafone) Inactive Sims: Oskar Czech R, BT Genie Pay as you go UK. Spare (unused phones) NEC 616, Ericsson t68/i, Nokia 3310, Sendo m550, Mototorola v66i, Motorola a1000.lg u880, Sony Ericsson t230. Orange spv m5000, Samsung z400, Motorola SLVR (Red)!, lobster tv700, spv m700, prada phone, motorola l7e, Skype phone, siemens sl65, blackberry 8810, Nokia 6500 slide X2.

	(#9)
Richard10002 (Offline) Member Advanced Member Posts: 60 Join Date: 03 Oct 2006 Country:	03-11-2007, 20:52 "knowing how slow the uk mobile market seems to be with regard to changing price plans etc incl roaming rates on there own initiative i don't think it will be for a while yet. " This is the way most large UK businesses work - they screw the customer and provide poor service, (through cost cutting), until forced either by legislation, or competition, to play ball - and the UK government have shown that they have no interest in assisting with legislation. 3 have been persistently innovative and havd made some incredible offers but, at least historically, their call and connection quality was poor, so inroads were difficult. Looks like 3 are coming good, and maybe we will get some reasonable, rather than rip off, deals in the not too distant future.