Belgium 'abolished'
 

Belgians were thrown into a panic when a spoof TV news report said their country had been 'abolished'.

Government offices were flooded with calls after the report that the Dutch-speaking Flanders region had declared independence and Belgium no longer existed as a nation.

The French-language RTBF interrupted programming to show footage of cheering crowds waving the Flemish flag and traffic jams at the new border.

Even foreign diplomats were taken in by the hoax which the station said was designed to show tensions between the French and Dutch-speaking communities.

Belgium's broadcasting minister eventually ordered the station to flash up the words "this is fiction" over the broadcast, reports the Daily Record.

A spokesman for Belgian prime minister Guy Verhofstadt said: "It was in very bad taste. It scared many people."

RTBF television's head of news Yves Thiran said: "Our intention was to show viewers the real possibility of Belgium no longer being a country in a few months."

The outrage is growing in Belgium.

24-hours after a fake television broadcast reported that the Dutch-speaking part of Belgium had declared independence, there is anger and confusion in both halves of the country. One girl said she wasn't in favour of a national split and the broadcast was frivolous. "I don't know anything about it", another said. "In any case, they're idiots." "I think Belgium is losing its sense of humour," was another opinion. Normal broadcasts were interrupted by a grave newsreader who told viewers that Flanders, the Flemish-speaking region of northern Belgium, had declared its independence, forcing the King to flee abroad.

The mock report included a correspondent standing outside parliament saying that politicians had voted overwhelmingly for Flanders' independence. Inside the parliament the day after a real debate was in progress to discuss the effect of the broadcast with Prime Minister Guy Verhoefstadt attempting to defuse the furore. I would just like to give some advice, he said, and that is to all those who participated in the broadcast - think twice about doing it again. The head of television station responsible for the hoax broadcast RTBF said he just wanted to stir up debate. It looks as if he succeeded.

What do you think about that? :)

Is it a :idea: genial idea or 'crappy' journalism? :roll:

Godverdomme! :lol:

There will soon be a wave of asylum seekers ...





... ok only a very small one - I wonder which broadcaster will give them a job?

ME! :P

I think that they had a GENIAL idea :idea:

I don't think it's genial, from my point of view it's rather banal. However, I survived the real country splitting in 15 pieces, so 2 parts are not that much. :lol:

Well, I forgot your situation :D

Well, but Belgium is a quite specific country because it has HQ of EU and NATO on its territory. If it stopped to exist, then those HQ would remain outside EU/NATO because I don't think that Wallonia and Flanders would "automatically" take place of Belgium :).

BTW, I think that those journalists were just idiots. IMHO freedom of speech is very important but responsibility is even more important!

they bigger question is this: will the flanders join the EU ? :P :P :P

Even if not, Brussels is an enclave in Flanders, not its part. It would be enough if the City of Brussels remained in the EU :lol: . And NATO HQ are Mons in Wallonia, so Wallonia should remain in NATO, too :).

More about splits and unifications. Thanks to split of the USSR and Czechoslovakia and reunification of Germany, between 3th Oct 1990 and 1st Jan 1993 my country lost its all 3 neighbours and gained 7 new ones :).
It had one funny consequence. Until 1989, communist authorities issued special passports "valid in socialist countries only". After 1989 transformations those passports were still valid. However, because 3 neighbour countries (USSR, Czechoslovakia and GDR) ceased to exist, after 1st Jan 1993 it was possible to cross the Polish border with those passports only by air (e.g. flying to Hungary) :D

i think Belgium SHOULD be abolished...hehehehe then again 'its a silly place' hehehehe they cant decide between being french or dutch hehehehe

What a Pole should have done to enter a non socialist country? Was it necessary to apply for another passport? Was it easy to cross socialist to socialist borders? In USSR people just kept passports for internal use, any foreign trips required another 'foreign' passport that you could not easily get.

What you call 'passport for internal use', in Poland is named "dowód osobisty" what stands for "personal proof (of identification)". Now it's just a plastic ID card (credit card format) valid in EU, Norway, Iceland and (not 100% sure) Switzerland. However, until recently it was a small green booklet. "Dowód osobisty" was also often a document used for travelling to socialist countries (especially 1971-1981) and to Germany, Czech Rep. and Slovakia for inhabitans of border zones only (1993-2004).
For going to non-socialist country a special passport, valid "for the all the country of the world" had to be used. It was valid usually for 3 years, either single or multiple use. Even if it was a multiple use one, it had to be deposited in the passport office right after the return. "Socialist" passport were kept at home at valid for 10 years.

Difficulties of crossing the borders were changing along time. Until 1971, going abroad usually required to be a businness trip, organised tour or a invitation from a foreigner - no matter from a socialist country or not (of course, it was much easier to go socialist countries). 1971-1980 was a "golden decade" :-P. Travelling to European sociallist countries was practically free of restrictions (excluding USSR). Travelling to "West" was relatively easy, too (it was possible to travel at least one year and to buy officially $150/year). In 1980, invitations for Polish citizens travelling to socialist countries were reintroduced (but other countries) as a "punishment" for the Solidarity movement. "Martial law" decade (1981-1989) was generally a return to the situation prior to 1971 - the law was pretty restrictive. In February 1989 the last communist goverment changed its attitude and started to give "all the world" passports to everyone without any special restrictions. Hovewer, invitation requirements "survived" 1989 (but these were requirements of other countries): East Germany until 1990 (unification of Germany), Czechoslovakia until 1991, Baltic states until late 1990's and Russia and the rest of the former USSR until visa introduction in 2003 (however, it was always easy to skip invitation requirements by buying "never-to-be-used hotel vouchers" :))

what about other red freindly countries ;ike north korea, china and cuba? oh and what about switzerland (bloody dog eaters....!)?

Free movement: Switzerland

<!-- Members Section - Table of Contents --><!-- End of Members Section Table of Contents --><!-- End of Job-Search Section --><!-- Start of privacy statements --> Information on the transitional rules governing the free movement of workers from, to and between the new member states
In the Member Countries of the European Economic Area (EEA) the free movement of workers is a fundamental right which permits nationals of one EEA country to work in another EEA country on the same conditions as that member state's own citizens.
During a transitional period of up to 7 years from 1 May 2004, certain conditions may be applied that restrict the free movement of workers from, to and between the new member states (2).
These restrictions only concern the freedom of movement for the purpose of taking up a job and they may differ from one member state to another.
By selecting a country in the list below you will find out which rules apply in that country to job seekers from other member states.

(2) - Cyprus - Czech Republic - Estonia - Hungary - Latvia - Lithuania - Malta - Poland - Slovakia - Slovenia

<!-- . FMRules -->Conditions and procedures governing the gainful employment in Switzerland of nationals of the ten new Members States of the EU (with the exception of Cyprus and Malta)

The protocol for extending bilateral agreements (between Switzerland and the European Union) to the ten new EU Member States entered into force on 1 April 2006. For citizens of these ten new Member States, however, certain restrictions on taking up employment in Switzerland are still in place.

What are the procedures for employing a national of one of the ten new Member States of the EU (with the exception of Cyprus and Malta)?

-As an employer, you must contact the relevant authority, generally speaking the labour market authority, and apply for a work permit for the person whom you wish to employ.

-You must also respect the working and salary conditions in force in your branch and in the profession of the person for whom you are applying for a permit. Applications will be subject to annual quotas, in particular as regards unskilled jobs in the agricultural sector.

-You may apply for either a residence permit of up to 12 months or up to five years. If you wish to employ a person for less than four months for an unskilled position, you may only do so if the quotas for permits are not full. The same applies if you wish to employ said person for more than four years.

N.B.: All citizens of Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Slovenia, Slovakia, Lithuania, Estonia or Latvia require a residence/work permit even if the duration of their employment is for less than three months. They must be in possession of a residence/work permit from the first day of taking up employment.

What are the procedures for employing a self employed worker to provide services in Switzerland?

Self employed workers from the new Member States of the EU shall be subject to the same conditions as those of the old Member States. Self employed workers will only be subject to quotas up until 31 May 2007. As his/her representative, you need only ensure that the person has registered with the relevant authorities.

Conditions for carrying out gainful employment in Switzerland if you are a national of the ten new Member States of the European Union, except Cyprus and Malta.

The protocol for extending bilateral agreements (between Switzerland and the European Union) to the ten new EU Member States entered into force on 1 April 2006. For citizens of eight new Member States, however, certain restrictions on taking up employment in Switzerland are still in place.

If you wish to work as a salaried employee, you must find an employer who has been authorised to employ nationals of the ten new Member States.
In order to receive this authorisation, the employer in Switzerland must prove that he has made efforts to recruit from the domestic labour market and that he has not found suitable workers (from among Swiss or foreign workers in the Swiss labour market). The employer must respect the working and salary conditions in force in his branch and in the profession. Applications will be subject to annual quotas, in particular as regards unskilled jobs in the agricultural sector.

What to do
As a salaried worker it is not up to you to obtain a residence permit. Rather, it is the employer who submits the application to the relevant local authority (generally speaking, where the labour market is located). The employer may apply for either a residence permit of up to 12 months or up to five years. In order to employ you, the employer must meet the above conditions. If the employer wishes to employ you for less than four months for an unskilled position, he may only do so if the quotas for permits are not full. The same applies if he wishes to employ you for more than four years. As regards entry into Switzerland, you require a valid national passport or identity card.

N.B.: if you are a national of one of the following countries: Poland, Hungary, the Czech Republic, Slovenia, Slovakia, Lithuania, Estonia or Latvia, you require a residence/work permit even if the length of your employment is under three months. You must be in possession of said residence/work permit from the first day of taking up employment.

If you wish to work in Switzerland as a self employed person.

Self employed workers from the new EU Member States shall be subject to the same conditions as those from the old EU Member States. As a self employed worker, you will only be subject to quotas up until 31 May 2007.

Conditions for carrying out gainful employment in Switzerland if you are a citizen of the former EU 15 Member States or the EFTA countries, including Malta and Cyprus.

The various agreements signed between Switzerland and the former EU 15 Member States include the agreement on the free movement of persons. It concerns salaried workers, self employed workers, service providers, recipients of services and non active persons (retired persons, students, etc.)

If you wish to work in Switzerland, you are entitled to go there for a maximum of six months to seek employment. Once you have an employment contract or a declaration of employment from an employer or if you can prove that you carry out a self employed activity, you may obtain a residence permit. This permit will be issued to you for the length of your employment contract and is renewable. If the your contract is for less than 12 months, your residence permit may be extended for up to 12 months.

If you carry out a self employed activity, you do not require a residence permit if you provide services for less than 90 days, but you must register with the relevant local authorities (www.bfm.admin.ch/index.php?id=364&L=1#2544) in the place where you supply your services. If you provide services for more than 90 days, you will receive a residence permit for the time taken to provide your services.

Conditions for Swiss citizens carrying out an activity in the Member States of the European Union and the EFTA countries.

The agreement signed between Switzerland and the European Union allow Swiss citizens to seek employment in EU and EFTA countries.

If you are a Swiss national, you are entitled to go to those countries for six months to seek employment. Once you have an employment contract or a declaration of employment from an employer, or if you can prove that you carry out a self employed activity, you may obtain a residence permit. As regards entry requirements, you need a valid national passport or identity card.

Restrictions applicable to service providers
- For the ten new Member States of the EU (except Cyprus and Malta)
The provision of services for a maximum duration of three months (90 days) per calendar year is subject to a procedure of announcement.
www.bfm.admin.ch/index.php?id=307&L=1
www.bfm.admin.ch/index.php?id=
except in the case of cross-border service providers (up to 90 days) in certain sectors (construction, industrial cleaning, security, horticulture), who are subject to the restrictions in force on the labour market (priority to workers integrated into the regular labour market, prior verification of wages and application of the Swiss criteria regarding qualifications). A residence permit is generally necessary. You can find out more about the restrictions on the website of the Federal Office for Migration.
www.bfm.admin.ch/index.php?L=1

All that detail - it looks like you're planning to go and work there

Me? Why not? :rolleyes:

Oh, these vouchers... :) The same thing needed to enter Poland till 2003 for Russian citizens, which in fact meant free entry state because you could buy such a voucher almost everywhere on your way (on railway stations, in a train going to Poland from some merchants etc.). Now it's not that easy, currently it is the worst period for exUSSR people travelling to West from time to time, because East Europe has not joined Schengen area still (by the way, when will these countries join it?), so for example it's not enough to have just a German visa in a Russian passport to cross Baltic states going there. Poland allowed such visa free transit since 90s and keeps it valid, Latvia allowed it since 1st December 2006, Hungary and Czech Republic did it since 1st September, but some other new EU members has not allowed it yet. Currently, if I have a Lithuanian visa I may enter Poland and then go to Lithuania, but I can't do the opposite route with Polish visa in my passport. If I need to go to Istanbul by a train, I have to get both Romanian and Bulgarian transit visas, which is crazy and not that easy since Turks used to put their visa at their border... and so on. :( Most of Russians are set behind iron curtain from the West again, because it's close to impossible to go 2000-3000 km to a nearest embassy just to fill up an application form and then make this way again just to get visa in their own hands.

Thanks a lot for the detailed explaination of what you had in Poland till 90s with abroad travels and regulations. Honestly, I didn't know that socialistic countries except of USSR had a sort of their own free travel area, so it was easy to cross from Poland to GDR, for example. Did they put those restrictions back in 80s right after Wojciech Jaruzelski proclamed state of war? :( On the contrary, USSR was generally closed from any country around, I mean you had to had some significant reasons to visit another country (even 'socialistic' one), which could be some things from military service to diplomatic work. Private visits were quite difficult, which was the essence of that iron curtain. :-/ 'Foreign' passports were also stored at authorities while you at home (however, AFAIR it was allowed to keep them at home since late Gorbatchev but people still needed exit visa every time they go abroad), I'm not sure if they were single or multiple use, it didn't really matter since you had to obtain it back for any visit you plan. Now Russians still have both 'internal' (all the people) and 'foreign' (those who applied for it and had no preventing reasons such as sues or valid top secret access) passports, but no exit visas needed since 1993 or may be earlier. On the contrary, some exUSSR republics use the only passport valid both for home and abroad, carrying just a 'foreign usage allowed' mark.

It's the same for us "westerners" if we want to travel around CIS countries, we need a different VISA for every country, making the journey very expensive and complicated. Of course there are not so many crazy people like me which like to go on holiday in CIS countries so the problem is less important than the opposite! :D BTW, I fear won't come to St.Petersburg this time as well... at the travel agency they told me to book after Christmas, but now that damned Lufthansa has cancelled that great offer for flying to Russia :( :( :(

North Corea was always closed even to its "close friends" :-P.
China and its friend Albania disjoined the Soviet block in the 1960's. Until 1990 Albania didn't allow even "socialist" tourists. As to Cuba, I don't exactly what ttravel restriction really were. However, the large cost of travel was prohibitive by itself.

Are you kidding? Switzerland was considered to have been the same "rotten" West as NATO/EEC members...

1st Jan 2008 for land traffic, 1st Apr 2008 (or something around) for air traffic. Not sure about the sea traffic.

Well, are so long trains journeys cheap enough to prefer them to taking the plane???

Must it be done personally? Can't travel agencies do those "paper transfers"?
In Poland travel agencies do that kind of job at least for Russian and Belarusan visas (and used to do the same for Western European or Israeli visas as long as they were required).


Well, it wasn't as easy as in 1990's nothing to say about EU, even non-Schengen. First of all, there were restrictive limits on currency exchanges (necessary in non-market economies). In 1972 there was even an experiment of full free trafic and full currency convertibility between Poland and GDR. Free traffic remained but there was a lack of balance about currencies - eastern Germans reamined with millions of Polish zlotys and with empty shops :-P.

No, it was due to Lech Wałęsa rather than Wojciech Jaruzelski :-P. Other socialist countries closed their borders in summer of 1980, right after strikes which were begging of the Solidarity. It was a prevention against the "freedom disease", effective for next 9 years :(. However, western countries were still open to Poles. There was even (at least since early 1970's) a visa free traffic for Poles to Finland, Sweden and Austria. Nevertheless those countries reintroduced visas in 1981 because of growing wave of Polish economical refugees. OTOH, Jaruzelski restricted foreign travels independently of other contries's policies, just to stop emmigration. However, when the passport policy loosened later in the 1980's, about 1 million Poles emmigrated anyway.

I realised that already in the late 1970's when I was a child. I spent summer holidays with my grandma or parents in Gdańsk or Gdańsk area. When I watched country signs on cars, I noticed that there were thousands of tourists from GDR, Czechoslovakia or Hungary and many from West Germany or Scandinavia but almost none from the USSR! And Kaliningradskaya oblast's is the "closest abroad" from Gdańsk! As to the borders between the socialist countries, they used to be named "borders of friendship". It was a common joke that "the border of friendship" is "the place where friendship ends" :-P.
It was visible especially if to consider that before 1988 there were only 2 road and 3 railway border crossings between Poland and USSR available for public use (the border length was over 1200 km).

Well, something like this was also necessary here in the 1970's to cross the border with "dowód osobisty"...

But it's not so bad after all. We don't need Ukrainian visas. I also heard that a Belarusan visa it not required when travelling to/from Russia. Not sure about Moldova (Poles don't need it). What else remains - not-so-quite :-P Caucasus region and Central Asia?

From this point of view (transits) the land traffic is more important, since you can stay in the 'behind the border' zone at international airports making a connection there, right? So, it's just a year remaining... not bad.

Yes if you travel from Russia or Ukraine or any exUSSR. Trains and buses are much cheaper in this part of the world. Also, some people (like me) just like to travel by trains and buses because you can visit many interesting places on your way too. And, which is for sure, there's always some people who are sick of aerophobia.

No, it usually should not be done personally when you apply for a EU visa. Luckily, EU countries do not require a personal interview for a visa applicant (but the States and UK do it, so you can get their visa only in person). However, travel agencies take too much here for such the services. For example, my aunt was applying for an Austrian visa while we had no Austrian consulate in St.Petersburg (now we still don't have it but Austrian visas are issued by the Finnish consulate here since 2005). The cheapest service for sending her documents to Moscow and back that she found was about 150 Euros (while the visa costed about 35 Euros itself). You can imagine how much a person should pay for sending documents from Vladivostok to Moscow via a tourist firm, for example... I don't say it's the problem that can't be solved, eventually, but look, it would have even been possible to go abroad from the USSR, if you had been ready to get this as the purpose of all your life and to bother much. I mean there should be some more adequate instruments in 21th century, such as Internet visas, simplified procedures for those who has other EU visas normally used etc and now it's not the time for building new walls in Europe, eventually. Talking about Russian and Belarussian visas... well, it's just the reflection of the rules that EU sets, nothing more.

Oh, I can imagine this. :) GDR was known to be the most rich 'soclalist' country in the whole East Europe, USSR was spending MUCH money to support this rich state of them to keep the contradiction between two German economics not that huge. So, it's quite reasonable why it had been ruined being gathered with another budget. :)

Oh, this is really interesting info that I have not heard here before. Surely, it could not be published in USSR in 80s, and now it's just the socialist Europe history detail which is not generally interesting for Russian media. :(

Which ones? One is surely Brest, and which was another road crossing? Anyway, it's perfectly clear why USSR inhabitants were not allowed to easily visit 'socialist' countries. From the Soviet point of view, people in these countries lived much better than Soviet people, and they had much more 'rotten' things in their lifestyles that made them closer to the 'rotten' West. It was 'half West', so it would have ruined the Soviet lifestyle itself if it had been too close. Also, if they allowed Soviet people to easily travel to Poland or to GDR, then millions and millions from here would have bought all the goods they find abroad, making the situation much worse that it was in 1972 with GDR-Poland. Remember, in 70s and especially in 80s Soviet people had much money that they could not spend (deficit). Money exchange limitation? Well, it's a problem, but there's always used to be the black market. It's known you could exchange soviet rubles to crones or zlotys and back in hotels etc., even though it was illegal and the rates were much worse than in official banks. From the other hand, it was not very difficult to visit USSR for people from the West in 70s and 80s, here were many Finnish 'vodka tourists' :) in that time, for example, or even Finnish workers building some hotels and other things. Also, here were West German, French, Italian or even American tourists... Not millions of them, but quite enough to create special layer of services for them (hotels, shops selling western goods for dollars etc.).

I guess people from EU need visas to enter any country located in the South Caucasus (may be except of Georgia) or in Central Asia, but this might be easier to get than a Russian visa, for example. I've heard some of these countries allowed Internet visas (you submit a form via the Internet and then you would take real visa on arrival if it's approved) or visas at the border. Belarussian visa... well, I'm afraid it's needed, and the border between Belarus and Russia that actually does not exist might put a foreigner into trouble. Anyway, I can find this info for sure, if you need.

Look, here's a difference. Europe is integrating while CIS is disintegrating, so CIS is called here 'a union for the correct divorce'. :) Also, not all the combinations of CIS countries allow visa free traffic. For example, Russians need visas to enter Georgia or Turkmenistan as well as people of these countries need visas to enter Russia. So, it's not like EU, far from that. :) I guess one day 'westeners' will not need visas for most of the western exUSSR (including Russia and Caucasus) while visas still will be needed for Central Asia.

Oh, that's so sad. :( Don't you have any other options? I hope there's still something that you could use. Have you ever considered trains? AFAIK there's one going from Venice to Moscow, may be it's not that expensive.

Well, talking about visas I've decided to get some info on exUSSR visa regulations. Here are the links.

Belarus - http://www.mfa.gov.by/eng/index.php?d=consul&id=3
Ukraine - http://www.mfa.gov.ua/mfa/en/509.htm
Moldova - http://www.mfa.md/consular-information/
Armenia - http://www.armeniaforeignministry.am...isawaiver.html
Azerbaijan - http://www.mfa.gov.az/eng/consular/visa.shtml (no countries list)
Georgia - http://www.mfa.gov.ge/index.php?sec_id=148&lang_id=ENG
Kazakhstan - http://www.mfa.kz/eng/index.php?cons=1&selected=8
Uzbekistan - http://www.mfa.uz/modules.php?op=mod...tid=157&page=1
Tajikistan - http://www.mid.tj/article_details.php?id=111 (in Russian)
Kyrgyzstan - the site of their Ministry of Foreign Affairs is currently down :)
Turkmenistan - seems there's no site of their Ministry of Foreign Affairs at all :)

Look, Georgia seems to be visa free for EU and the States. Moldova does not require an invitation for EU people to get their visa and it's visa free for Poland, Romania and Lithuania. Armenia allows Internet visa. Azerbaijan allows getting visas at the Baku international airport. EU citizens are probably able to get Tajikistan visas at Dushanbe airport, but I'm not sure. No simplifications with Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan and nothing is clear with Kyrgyzstan and Turkmenistan. :)

Well, next summer I'm planning to visit Armenia and Georgia, it would be great if I just need visa for Armenia and I can get it through internet! :)

Anyway, train from Venice to Moscow should be VERY expensive and VERY long, it's surely much better to fly to Vilnius/Riga and take a train there...

Yes you can get a visa at the Dushanabe airport for I think $65.00.

If one wants to leave Turkmenistan they have to get permission from Turkmanbassay. He is the only one who will give permission to leave. It is one of the most difficult countries I have ever been in. You have to regestier with the Foreign Affairs Minstry. Of course this is with most former Soviet Block Countries.

Kyrgyzstan is quite simple to get a visa. just apply at the Embassay
and have it in three days. I have seen ppl get the visa at the airport. Cost is unknown.

Kazakhstan is also quite simple to get visa. I don't think you can get one at the airport.

Hope this helps.











d

There are just two bad things with getting an Armenian visa this way: it costs 60 USD (much but still acceptable) and it's allowed only if you enter at Zvartnots airport (which is in fact Yerevan international airport), so you cannot go to Georgia and then to Armenia by train or by bus, while the opposite route is possible (arriving at Zvartnots and go to Georgia by anything you want). This might be really interesting trip, although there's quite hot and sunny summer, like in Italy. :)

May be you are right... Have you tried to calculate the cost for such the route?

What do you mean to leave? To visit may be? Well, I wonder who gives such permissions now when Turkmanbassay is dead...

It's simple, you don't get into Turkmenistan! :D
Poor Turkmenbashi, he was a very interesting dictator, even more than my friend Lukashenko! :P

There should have been a way... since some foreign delegations visited his funeral. :)

Oh, yes... :) Seriously, I believe Turkmenistan is going to get much better leader and regime, even though the relief will not be immediate. I hope they are going to have their own Gorbatchev soon. :)

I think that it's hard to find a worse one... maybe they could ask in North Korea! :D Of couse they deserve a much better situation, Turkmenistan can be one of the richest countries in Asia, like Kazakhstan, which surely is not democratic, but far better...

Oh, yes... However, there should be no parallels with North Korea. Turkmenistan is not that closed, I know some people from there and how they live. They use many features of modern life such as satellite TV, cars, have parties at restaurants, some private property is allowed etc., so it's just very restricted society from the political point of view, while it's not that limited in the real life.

Unless you have to transfer to another airport....

Yes, I realise that, but you mentioned travelling by train from Russia to Turkey. Then you must travel via Romania and Bulgaria paying an international train tariff - it's not that low even in eastern Europe now.

Yes, it seems crazy to me that I can travel without visa not only to most Europe but also to countries so distant as Japan, New Zealand or Argentina but I can't cross the border with Belarus 100 km from my home :(.
Now it looks incredible but there used to a strange time in Poland between October 1990 and April 1991 when despite freshly regained freedom and democracy it was possible to travel without visas, vouchers or invitations only to Hungary, Romania, Yugoslavia, Bulgaria and... Argentina :D. Also 24-hrs transit was allowed via Czechoslovakia or the USSR.

Yes, they had better living conditions than we did. E.g., my aunt who lives in Świnoujście (the north-west "corner" od Poland) used to buy Polish toilet paper in GDR (because it was permamently missing in Polish shops) :-P

Well, the official propaganda was silent about this wave of emmigration (as well as any after 1945 emmigration in general - who wanted to escape from socialist paradise :-P?) - these are 1990's estimates.
However, even more Poles have emmigrated since the EU accession - but at least they are only economical emmigrants - not political ones.

Medyka-Shegini on the Kraków-Przemyśl-Lvov route. Railway crossing where Medyka, Terespol-Brest and Kuźnica Białostocka-Grodno (Warszawa-Vilnius-Leningrad route). There used to be a Dorohusk-Jagodin railway crossing on Warszawa-Lublin-Kiev route in the 1950's but it was closed and reopened only in 1988 or 1989. There were no border crossing with Lithuanian SSR and Kalinigradskaya oblast'.


Well, the same applied (perhaps even more) to Poland in 1980's. So, despite the ideological reasons, "friendly" socialist countries protected their economies from "invasion" of Polish "shopping tourists". This fear was so great that Czechoslovakia opened it's borders only in 1991 when it truned that Czech and Slovaks buy more in Poland than Poles in Czechoslovakia :-P

They were source of precious convertible currencies - it was more important than ideology :-P

Oh, yes, this is a problem. However, it's often used to be the only international airport per a city for most of the connections, isn't it?

Look, the direct train to Istanbul would be expensive, you are right. However, here's a great layer of very popular cheap tours, which are half bus half train. It means the train part is used to cross exUSSR (cheap train tariffs) and then they use buses to finalize the route (buses are usually rented at border cities, such as Brest, Lviv or Cisinau). It's usually 2 times cheaper than a plane tour, which is significant.

For Russians it's a bit strange situation too. We have visa free traffic with some really distant countries such as Columbia or Marocco, but do not have it with almost all the non CIS neighbours. We can cross freely to some exYugoslavia states (Bosnia and Montenegro) and using vouchers to Croatia. We can enter Turkey with 'at-the-border' visas valid for 2 months etc., but EU is quite closed. There are some simplifications, though. For example, Cypriot visas are free and easy to get, and people of Russian North-West may apply for a Finnish visa (usually multiple entry 30 days per 6 months or even more) without any invitation. That's why the Finnish border seems to be unlocked from here, and you can see MUCH Russians and Russian cars in South-East Finland. Some people use these visas to enter other Schengen countries, they are valid for it with some specific restrictions. However, these are rather exceptions. A private visit to EU is always a headache for a 'normal' Russian. I guess they should quit the inhumane practice of giving visas just for the duration of your visit, I mean if you shows no problems for EU (normal travel history, place of work, salary etc.) you should get a 1-2 years valid or may be more multiple entries visa on auto basis. This is what Finns in fact do for St.Petersburg inhabitants, but it's still an exception. And, which is for sure, the same should be with Russian visas for EU citizens. This is what would decrease the visa headache dramatically, while visa free regulation is still not possible. However, it seems that embassies just like huge lines at their doors and grabbing money for every travel a person does.

Well... visa regulations in fact more depends on economics and crime than on politic state. Unless there's a country that specially block their borders, the level of democracy is not seriously considered there. For example, a country might be perfectly democratic, but EU or USA would never allow visa free traffic with it's citizens if their salary is about 50-100 Euros/month average. From another hand, people of Paraguay or Bruney may enter the Schengen territory without visas. Real democracy, eh?.. :) Russia has 300/month average and normal 1000/month in Moscow or St.Petersburg, but I guess they more consider problem of crime and North Caucasus than 'so-so' democracy.

:D Oh, this is funny! I believe the money allowed to exchange was quite enough to buy all the toilet paper your aunt needed. :) By the way, I have a bit strange memory. You know, in late 80's rumor had that Poles were buying lots of Soviet hi-tech (mostly TVsets), so that were them who created global deficit in this layer of goods in USSR, especially in big Soviet cities such as Moscow or Leningrad. Although I'm sure it's exaggeration, is it somehow correct?

I understand it. Here we had few political emmigrants till the late 80s (few because most of them were sent out by KGB as very 'annoying' persons, they could not emmigrate by themselves). Then it was really intensive wave of emmigrants, both political and economical. There was another wave after the crisis of 1998. Currently I guess just a few emmigrate from here since salaries are acceptable and most of the political emmigrants have already left. :)

Oh, it's in fact seen on old Soviet maps, but I thought it was just not all the information shown. Now I see there was as it was shown. So, the road crossings at Mamonovo and Bagrationovsk (Kaliningrad area) and at Grodno are 'new'? I crossed through them in 90s and some of them looked a bit 'used'. :)

From another hand, it was almost visa free traffic between Czech republic and Russia since 1993 or about that, so they seemed to change their view completely fast enough. I crossed Polish-Czech border a few times in middle 90s, I can hardly say the traffic was intensive and goods oriented. No, it was rather people going for a day walk and back, sometimes by feet and no goods carrying.

Oh, yes, although I guess it was not that much comparing it with the oil money that USSR was getting in late 70s and early 80s.

should Belgium be abolished
 

Going back to the forum title and origional topic, Yes Belgium Should be abolished....same as luxembourge and other small silly countries, andorra, monaco, san marino, the vatican...they are taking up to much space...

We just did it :p

Porta Pia :rolleyes: It was through an artillery-opened breach in the wall near here that on September 20, 1870 Bersaglieri soldiers entered Rome and completed the unification of Italy. :beer:

You can call me a non modern person or a populist :), but I really guess many nations do deserve independence much more than these pseudo-countries you listed above. I mean Curds, Abkhazians, Basques, Tibetians etc. These are real nations which are different from their 'owners' (often they are from another group of ethnoses) and who have been fighting for their right to get independent, while all these Andorra (in fact Catalonia), San Marino (Italy) etc. at present are too tiny and too similar to their neighbours to be really independent. So, either Curds and Basques should be independent too or Andorra should be Spain and San Marino should be Italy, the rest is unfair. :)