i have followed this forum for a few months, but this is my first time posting. many thanks to all who have posted. i've learned a lot.

my daughter travels to western europe later this summer for about a month. she has an unlocked tri-band sony-ericsson z500a (850/1800/1900). i'm wondering if we need to buy a cheap 900/1800 phone instead of relying on her se. i've looked at the coverage maps on the http://www.gsmworld.com/roaming/gsminfo/index.shtml site, but i must be a little color-blind because i have trouble telling whether the maps show light (1800) or dark (900) red. she plans to visit london then eurail to paris, south of france, rome, florence, possibly venice, switzerland, berlin and amsterdam. probably additional stops in nurenburg and den haug where we have friends. any advice from those who have gone before?

by the way, we're planning on using a um type sim with callbackworld (to be purchased).

There should be no problem in the places you've listed. It's sort of like having only GSM-1900 in the USA. No problem as long as you stick to cities and major highways. If you had said "West Coast of Ireland", "Rural Norway" or "Egypt" the advice would have been to buy a phone with 900 & 1800. In NL the 900 & 1800 coverages are virtually identical.

If you are planning for her to buy prepaid SIMs be sure that the carrier she picks supports GSM-1800-only operation.

thanks for the advice. re the 1800-only sim suggestion, i assume that applies to any sim, whether local or international. sounds like you know folks who have been bitten by this before. should i go to the point of sending an email to the vendor before purchase or should i just look for phone model compatibility on a vendor's web page?

I think DR is saying that she should be OK with the z500a. The international SIMs usually have multiple providers with multiple frequencies, especially in the places you mentioned.

Stan

What Dr. meant is that, since you have only the 1800 band of the 2 bands used in europe, you would be better off with an 1800 only carrier, instead of a carrier with both bands. Just like if you have a 1900 only phone in the US, you would be better off with tmobile rather than cingular that uses both bands (850/1900).

Most european countries have an 1800 only carrier, Since their entire network is 1800 only you would have service whereever they have coverage. For example, in the UK Orange, Virgin (uses Tmobile's network) are examples of 1800 only carriers. So, you would be better with them rather than say vodafone that used both bands.

http://www.prepaidgsm.net/en/uk.html

excellent. makes perfect sense. thanks to all.

Good point, DRN.
And it doesn't have to be only the matter of coverage.
Once I read that using a 1800-no-900 phone may encounter problems in 900/1800 networks, even when you're in 1800 service area. It's because some networks are configured to "force" the phone to use 900 first, and 1800 later, if 900 is busy. That's 1800 only phones may be useless despite there's 1800 coverage.
I don't know if it's true - I couldn't check it by myself because I've never had a 1800-only phone :). Does anyone know more about the problem menstioned above?

And one more, general remark.
I don't understand what is the sense in producing 850/1800/1900 tribands? For American users 850/900/1900 would be more useful. And, I think that GSM phones nowadays should be produced as 900/1800, 850/1900 (for Uncle Sam and the neighbourhood :)), or quad-bands 850/900/1800/1900....

GSM 850/1800/1900 has sense because Brazil is 1800 only and also several little central American countries are using 1800 as well. That's the reason why Cingular has this kind of triband phones.

Anyway I agree with my Polish friend, I fear she could have some problems in Europe with a 1800 only phone.

- London: no problems using Orange or T-Mobile
- Paris: there can be some problems, she must use Bouygues (probably weak coverage on the rail between London and Paris)
- South of France: she must use Bouygues, can have problems wit that too
- Rome, Florence, Venice: she must use Wind, coverage should be good. Probably no coverage (or weak) moving from one city to another
- Switzerland: she must use Orange, it should work well
- Berlin: no problems with E-Plus or O2
- Amsterdam: no problems with Telfort, Orange and T-Mobile

Generally speaking there should be no or little problems in big cities. France and Italy haven't a 1800-only operator, but Wind and Bouygues have mostly 1800 and usually 900 is on the EGSM band configured to be used when you don't have 1800 (so the opposite which Przemolog wrote, which applies to mainly 900MHz operators, with 1800 in cities). Something similar should happen in Switzerland. No problems in UK, DE, NL.

If she buys an international sim-card she has to check, first, if it has roaming agreements with the 1800 only (or mainly) operators. Which are usually 1 or (seldom) 2 per country (only NL has 3).

It seems to be harder to make a quad-band phone than a tri-band phone. So, when Cingular wanted to sell a phone for 850/1900 that was also "international" they (and the manufacturers) hit on a modification of the existing 900/1800/1900 phones. Changing from 900 to 850 is mostly a software modification. It was really a cheat, since 1800 provides only limited international coverage. However, as I said earlier, in this case it's good 'nuf.

great input. i appreciate the detail. sounds like i need to research roaming contracts for the international sim and compare with effendi's list. then i'll chat with my daughter about any holes in coverage and gage her level of comfort. then we'll make a decision on a 900/1800 phone.

at the moment i'm leaning toward getting a cheap, no frills, 900/1800 phone for backup. not a major investment. that way she'll have her se for sending pictures back to her sister. (that could get expensive!) and she could also use the backup with a local sim in case some of her travel friends decided to split up for the day.

thanks again to all for your feedback.

OK, but even we consider Americas only, there are 900-only countries out there. According to gsmworld.com, these are Guyana, Cuba and Venezuela. There are also some 900/1800 or 900/1900 networks in small Caribbean countries and I'm not sure if 1800 or 1900 coverage isn't smaller than 900 coverage. OK, I admit that Cuba and Venezuela are very Uncle Sam unfriendly :) so it's not a big problem after all....

Yes, you're right. My concern was mainly about "historically" 900-only operators which use 1800 just to enhance capacity, not to have extra coverage. AFAIK (but, again, it may be a kind of urban legend) they may be configured in such way that they don't work with 1800-only phones

In order to add my 2 cents, E-Plus and O2 both have a well built-out GSM 1800-only footprint. E-Plus will probably do better than O2 out in the countryside since they have never needed to rely on a domestic roaming agreement like O2 still does in some areas by roaming on T-Mobile.

Secondly, I have used E-Plus for close to 6 years and I haven't had any problems with them in any major German cities. Since the incoming calls are free in Western Europe, it might be a good idea for your daughter to try out E-Plus and O2 in each place she visits to get an idea of which network works better for that area.

It's not a legend, it's true in some places, it depends on the priority given to one of the 2 bands.

It depends on if the carrier decides to implement a control channel on the 1800 MHz side or not. 1800 MHz can be used simply as an expansion of the 900 MHz band if they want to, just the way that E-GSM (the first extension of the 900 MHz band) is used. If the phone can't access the requested channel number then the system gives it one it can access. Without a control channel in the 1800 MHz band an 1800-only phone will not be able to use that signal.

Yes, what I mean is that "traditionally-900" operators often give priority to 900 channels (they have more), while "traditionally-1800" operators will give that priority to 1800 channels. So I suppose that a 1800-only phone could have some problems with the first ones, while a 900-only phone will have with the latter ones.

In any case, a dual-band 900/1800 in Europe is almost always advisable.

I know this fact about Polish operators.
Era and Plus ("primarily" 900 only) are said to be useless for 1800 only phones whereas Orange ("primarily" 1800 only) works OK with 1800 only phones in all the 1800 coverage area.
Since Poland is not in the plan of the trip under consideration, I didn't mention this specific case but I was afraid that this unpleasant situation may happen somewhere else.

It's the same with TIM and Vodafone (like Plus and Era) and Wind (like Orange). With the disadvantage that Wind has probably more 900 than Orange (a bit like Oskar, now Vodfone in CZ or Amena in Spain and Bouygues in France).

The GSM 900/1800 and GSM 1800-only arrangement will change in the decade or so since the German Bundesnetzagentur/RegTP that regulates the license distribution/communications infrastructure plans to have E-Plus and O2 give up some GSM 1800 spectrum in exchange for some GSM 900 spectrum. T-Mobile and Vodafone will get some more GSM 1800 spectrum as well.

Article from Teltarif.de:
RegTP wants to move E-Netz (GSM 1800) networks to the GSM 900 band

Frequencies to be redistributed among the 4 established networks

May 8th, 2005

When GSM was launched in Germany back in 1992, the mobile world was still in perfect shape. The D-Netz providers T-Mobile and Vodafone stayed in the 900 Mhz range and the E-Netz providers E-Plus (1994) and O2 (1998) were allocated frequencies in the 1800 Mhz band. But the early estimates of potential users only ranged from 2 million to 10 million were quickly exceeded so the RegTP complied with T-Mobile's and Vodafone's requests for 1800 Mhz spectrum.

E-Plus and O2 to move to the D-Netz

According to a survey conducted by the RegTP, all involved parties would support moving E-Plus and O2 to the E-GSM band which is located just the current D-Netz frequencies. The frequency bands located in the 880-890 and 925-935 Mhz were either used by the military or by CB - Citizens Band - radio.

No definitive decision has been made yet since the changes wouldn't be made until 2016. It is certain that the new frequency distribution will have to be completed by December 31st, 2016. T-Mobile's and Vodafone's licenses are due to expire before that date but would receive an extension to cover that missing time gap. This is the RegTP's way of planing ahead and playing it "safe".

If all were to go the way the Bonn-based agency sees it, then E-Plus and O2 will be partially migrated to the E-GSM band. The new frequencies will be distributed in 4x 5 Mhz blocks (2 for E-Plus and 2 for O2) which is the spectrum request both companies discreetly submitted to the RegTP. In exchange, they would have to vacate parts of the 1800 Mhz band. The vacated frequencies would be kept available for later UMTS-expansion.

Consequences of the frequency redistribution

A frequency migration would make it possible for the E-Netz providers to build out their networks at "normal" prices which would also make the arguments cease that in-building penetration with the D-Netz providers is better. E-Plus customers would have to make sure that they have a dual-band GSM 900/1800 handset. All of this might be unnecessary since times may have thrown these ambitious plans a curveball. Insiders are speculating about whether O2 Germany will even continue its own domestic network build-out by instead expanding their current national roaming agreement with T-Mobile. E-Plus has invested heavily in their long overdue network expansion. Branch insiders are undecided whether E-Plus will continue to expand its own network in areas that it doesn't fully cover yet or whether existing markets should be consilidated since many users repeatedly complain about the lack of "in-building" coverage.

Source: http://www.teltarif.de/arch/2005/kw18/s17063.html

Updated Article:

E-Plus and O2 will also use the D-Netz Frequencies

-In exchange, portions of the E-Netz will have to be vacated

February 8th, 2006

The two German E-Netz (GSM 1800) providers E-Plus and O2 will be allowed to expand to the frequency bands located below 900 Mhz. Up until now, this band was used exclusively by T-Mobile and Vodafone. The federal Bundesnetzagentur (BNetzA) confirmed to teltarif.de today that E-Plus and O2 will be allocated spectrum in the 880-990 and 925-935 Mhz bands which were used by the German military that were returned to the BNetzA some time ago.

Both providers will receive 2x 5 Mhz paired frequency blocks but have to vacate 2x 5 Mhz paired 1800 Mhz frequency blocks within a year. This exchange will bring numerous advantages to both providers. This will be exemplified mostly in the countryside where the expansion of the 900 Mhz band covers greater distances than in the 1800 Mhz band. Both providers will be able to provide more coverage with less sites. Customers won't fell this change since almost all users in the 1800 Mhz already use handsets that support the GSM 900/1800 bands. GSM 1800-only handsets will retain the use of the remaining 1800 Mhz frequencies. But both providers can't start the network conversions just yet. Since this is a federally-initiated policy change, this proposed change can still be fought in court. The D-Netz providers made the same change back in 1999, they acquired GSM 1800 spectrum in order to boost their voice network capacity in major German cities.

Source: http://www.teltarif.de/arch/2006/kw06/s20416.html

If I were setting up the plan for a country that had no cellular service at all, I'd start out with two carriers, each having about 25 MHz of 900 MHz spectrum and about 30 MHz of 1800 MHz. After X years (X >= 5) they'd each give up about 12 MHz of 900 MHz spectrum for two new carriers who would each also get about 30 MHz of 1800. Not sure how I'd allocate 3G. If my country had a lot of very rural areas I'd probably set up some way of sharing the 450 MHz spectrum for coverage in the outback. As they say, "Hindsight is 20/20"

I don't know what the 450 Mhz band is being used for here in Germany. It was never used for the analog German C-Netz which was located in the 900 Mhz band prior to the introduction of GSM in 1992.

Exactly. Weak coverage moving from a city to another one.

In the center of Rome, Florence and Venice you'll have full 1800 coverage, but going out you'll find expecially 900Mhz (Wind, too). Expecially outside Rome and Florence (Chianti, Valdarno, Mugello), it's better in Veneto where 1800Mhz are normal between Venice and Verona.

thanks again to all who responded. i wanted to provide some feedback.

recap: my daughter was to travel throughout western europe for about a month. she had an unlocked us tri-band cell and an "international" sim. we were concerned about the extent of coverage she would have without the 900 gsm band.

she ended up sticking with her us tri-band with the understanding that she would buy a cheap dual-band gsm in europe if needed. the sim was a united mobile sim and she used callbackworld, too.

fast-forward to present: she's been in europe not quite two weeks. after she acclimated to the double callback, coverage seemed ok in london. they were located in the hyde park area and visited the sites nearby. some calls had a "tinny" or "cyborg" (not sure how to describe) sound to them as if only part of the signal was getting through. a hangup and redial usually corrected the problem.

she had some problems on the train from lille to paris, calls that wouldn't connect. although we were able to get a couple of calls through. paris was clear as a bell. (she was quite impressed with the bastille day fireworks at the eiffel tower!) couldn't get any calls to connect on the train between paris and nice. i'm not sure where the train was during our attempts. coverage in nice was excellant. they were somewhere in the area of the palace of finance? her cell was a lifesaver when one of the girls got lost.

unfortunately we didn't test any calls on the train from nice to rome. they are located very close to termini station and coverage has been great in rome. (she was overwhelmed by st peters. her comment was, "these people have money!") they are due to travel to florence on monday. (although she may stay in rome as she has informed me that she has had "the best pasta she has ever tasted in her life".) seriously, florence is on monday, then on to venice, then on to the swiss alps.

overall we have been very satisfied with using the us tri-band with the um sim. callbackworld was also good until their system crashed on wednesday (she was in nice at the time). we haven't been able to use callbackworld since then. apparantly their system backups have not been able to restore any accounts that have signed up within the last few weeks. :(

all in all my daughter has had a wonderful time and that is in large part due to the fine advice that all of you have been so kind to give. thank you.

That's exactly what we hope to achieve...: to help out where we can ;)